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I also know, however, that lawyers have a higher obligation to the rule of )Tj T* 0.16 Tw (law, and that lawyers do not exist simply as the instruments of their clients will. )Tj T* 0.0925 Tw (Based on some of the information that has been coming to light recently, it appears )Tj T* 0.215 Tw (that Bush Administration lawyers played a significant role in crafting, justifying, )Tj T* 0.2575 Tw (and implementing interrogation techniques that may be illegal and, in so doing, )Tj T* 0.0675 Tw (these lawyers failed in meeting that obligation to the rule of law. 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The Chair now recognizes himself for 5 minutes for )Tj -6.7417 -1.02 TD 0.052 Tw (an opening statement. )Tj 1 -1.02 TD 0.13 Tw (Today the Subcommittee continues its investigation into the Ad-)Tj -1 -1.02 TD 0.378 Tw (ministrations interrogation policies, their source, the legal jus-)Tj T* 0.052 Tw (tification for those policies, and how they were carried out. )Tj 1 -1.02 TD 0.106 Tw (The more we look at this question, the more disturbing the facts )Tj -1 -1.02 TD 0.16 Tw (appear to be. The practices appear to have been more widespread )Tj T* 0.09 Tw (and the legal justifications more flimsy than was initially reported. )Tj T* 0.152 Tw (Evidence also appears to be mounting that officials at the highest )Tj T* 0.176 Tw (levels of the Administration may have been directly involved to a )Tj T* 0.166 Tw (far greater extent and far earlier in the process in ordering these )Tj T* 0.366 Tw (techniques, which many characterize as torture, than had pre-)Tj T* 0.052 Tw (viously been represented to Congress and the American people. )Tj 1 -1.02 TD 0.146 Tw (We need to get to the facts. The purpose of these hearings is to )Tj -1 -1.02 TD 0.208 Tw (get those facts. Although one of the witnesses who would appear )Tj T* 0.104 Tw (to have direct personal knowledge of these matters, Douglas Feith, )Tj T* 0.63 Tw (withdrew from the hearing this morning, we have Colonel )Tj T* 0.132 Tw (Wilkerson here, who will be able to provide important information )Tj T* 0.154 Tw (and an important perspective on these events and the issues they )Tj T* 0.224 Tw (raise from personal knowledge. Mr. Feith will appear before this )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (Committee before too much more time has elapsed. )Tj 1 -1.02 TD 0.096 Tw (I have endeavored to ensure that we get on the record testimony )Tj -1 -1.02 TD 0.2 Tw (from people with actual knowledge of these matters and the per-)Tj T* 0.31 Tw (spective and expertise of military people who I believe were ill )Tj T* 0.088 Tw (served by political appointees. This is not, as some have suggested, )Tj T* 0.3 Tw (a witch hunt or a lynching, high- or low-tech. American people )Tj T* 0.268 Tw (have a right to know what their Government has done in their )Tj T* 0.24 Tw (name and what it is continuing to do. That is why we are here )Tj T* 0.108 Tw (today. We all want America to be secure, but our national security )Tj T* 0.192 Tw (and our Nations values have not been well served by what I be-)Tj T* 0.116 Tw (lieve to have been dangerous, novel, and illegal policies. I look for-)Tj T* 0.052 Tw (ward to the testimony of our witnesses. )Tj 1 -1.02 TD (I yield back the balance of my time. )Tj T* 0.058 Tw (Mr. N)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 185.1696 273.8 Tm 0 Tw (ADLER)Tj 10 0 0 10 214.0571 273.8 Tm 0.058 Tw (. I now recognize our distinguished Ranking Minority )Tj -6.7057 -1.02 TD 0.154 Tw (Member, the gentleman from Arizona, Mr. Franks for his opening )Tj T* 0 Tw (statement. )Tj 1 -1.02 TD 0.052 Tw (Mr. F)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 183.6296 243.2 Tm 0 Tw (RANKS)Tj 10 0 0 10 212.9651 243.2 Tm 0.052 Tw (. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. )Tj -5.5965 -1.02 TD 0.276 Tw (Mr. Chairman, the subject of detainee treatment was actually )Tj -1 -1.02 TD 0.12 Tw (the subject of over 60 hearings, markups, and briefings during the )Tj T* 0.182 Tw (last Congress in the Armed Services Committee alone, of which I )Tj T* 0.064 Tw (am a Member. And I just want to reiterate, like I try to every time, )Tj T* 0.216 Tw (that torture is banned by various provisions by law, and I agree )Tj T* 0.368 Tw (with that. Torture should be banned, including a 2005 Senate )Tj T* 0.27 Tw (amendment prohibiting the cruel, inhumane, or degrading treat-)Tj T* 0.074 Tw (ment of anyone in U.S. custody. Incidentally, if you break that law, )Tj T* 0.16 Tw (if the person dies, that person that did it is subject to death pen-)Tj 0 -1.01 TD 0 Tw (alty. )Tj 1 -1.01 TD 0.056 Tw (Severe interrogations by contrast do not involve torture, and they )Tj -1 -1.01 TD 0.146 Tw (are still legal. The fact is if waterboarding is torture, then we are )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (torturing our own soldiers in the training process. )Tj /F6 1 Tf 6.5 0 0 6.5 25 20 Tm 1 g 0 Tw [(VerDate Aug 31 2005 )-1076.9(11:36 Feb 04, 2009)-1076.9(Jkt 000000)-1076.9(PO 00000)-1076.9(Frm 00006)-1076.9(Fmt 6633)-1076.9(Sfmt 6601)-1076.9(H:\\WORK\\CONST\\061808\\42972.000)-1076.9(HJUD1)-1076.9(PsN: 42972)]TJ ET endstream endobj 27 0 obj << /ProcSet [/PDF /Text ] /Font << /F1 4 0 R /F6 9 0 R >> /ExtGState << /GS1 10 0 R >> >> endobj 29 0 obj << /Length 4532 >> stream BT /F1 1 Tf 10 0 0 10 303.22 661 Tm 0 g /GS1 gs 0 Tc 0 Tw (3 )Tj -14.622 -2 TD 0.252 Tw (Severe interrogation is rarely ever used. CIA Director Michael )Tj -1 -1.04 TD 0.106 Tw (Hayden has confirmed that, despite the incessant hysteria in some )Tj T* 0.088 Tw (quarters, the waterboarding technique has only been used on three )Tj T* 0.082 Tw (high-level captured terrorists, the very worst of the worst. The CIA )Tj T* 0.358 Tw (waterboarded 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, Abu )Tj T* 0.242 Tw (Zubaidah, and Abdul Rahim Nashiri for approximately 1 minute )Tj T* 0.084 Tw (each. The result of a total of 3 minutes of the severe interrogations )Tj T* 0.134 Tw (were of immeasurable benefits to the American people. CIA Direc-)Tj T* 0.442 Tw (tor Hayden has said that Mohammed and Zubaidah provided )Tj T* 0.286 Tw (roughly 25 percent of all of the information the CIA had on al )Tj T* 0.154 Tw (Qaeda from human sources. A full 25 percent of all of the human )Tj T* 0.076 Tw (intelligence we received on al Qaeda derived from 3 minutes worth )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (of rarely used interrogation tactics. )Tj 1 -1.04 TD 0.06 Tw (Mr. Chairman, I have done this before, but lets remind ourselves )Tj -1 -1.04 TD 0.09 Tw (what Senator Schumer of New York said at a Judiciary Committee )Tj T* 0.094 Tw (hearing on terror policy on June 8, 2004, and it should come up on )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (the screen. )Tj 1 -1.04 TD 0.358 Tw ([Video shown: Senator Schumer: We ought to be reasonable )Tj -1 -1.04 TD 0.104 Tw (about this. I think there are probably very few people in this room )Tj T* 0.234 Tw (or in America who would say that torture should never, ever be )Tj T* 0.076 Tw (used, particularly if thousands of lives are at stake. Take the hypo-)Tj T* 0.18 Tw (thetical. If we knew that there was a nuclear bomb hidden in an )Tj T* 0.108 Tw (American city and we believed that some kind of torture, fairly se-)Tj T* 0.132 Tw (vere maybe, would give us a chance of finding that bomb before it )Tj T* 0.194 Tw (went off, my guess is most Americans and most Senators, maybe )Tj T* 0.212 Tw (all, would say, do what you have to do. So it is easy to sit back )Tj T* 0.112 Tw (in the armchair and say that torture can never be used. But when )Tj T* 0.154 Tw (you are in the foxhole, it is a very different deal. And I respect, I )Tj T* 0.188 Tw (think we all respect, the fact that the President is in the foxhole )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (every day.] )Tj 1 -1.04 TD 0.1 Tw (Mr. F)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 184.1096 329.0001 Tm 0 Tw (RANKS)Tj 10 0 0 10 213.4451 329.0001 Tm 0.1 Tw (. Mr. Chairman, the fact is I dont know that I agree )Tj -6.6445 -1.04 TD 0.076 Tw (with everything that Mr. Schumer said. We are talking in this par-)Tj T* 0.198 Tw (ticular situation about not torture, but severe interrogations, and )Tj T* 0.158 Tw (I would take issue with some of the things the Senator said. So I )Tj T* 0.13 Tw (think it is very important to somehow separate these two kinds of )Tj T* 0 Tw (activities. )Tj 1 -1.04 TD 0.082 Tw (After the May 6, 2008, House Constitutional Subcommittee hear-)Tj -1 -1.04 TD 0.106 Tw (ing, our august Chairman John Conyers, who I respect very much, )Tj T* 0.33 Tw (stated, Radio silence was the response when todays witnesses )Tj T* 0.096 Tw (were asked to identify a single example of a true ticking bomb sce-)Tj T* 0.088 Tw (nario ever occurring. And I can only respond to that. Certainly we )Tj T* 0.176 Tw (dont know what those ticking bomb scenarioswe have not been )Tj T* 0.168 Tw (able to nail those down. But as Stewart Taylor said and wrote in )Tj T* 0.552 Tw (the National Journal, The CIA had reason to believe that )Tj T* 0.236 Tw (unlocking the secrets in Khalid Sheikh Mohammeds head might )Tj T* 0.19 Tw (save hundreds of lives and perhaps many, many more in the un-)Tj T* 0.228 Tw (likely but then conceivable event that al Qaeda was preparing a )Tj T* 0.154 Tw (nuclear or biological attack on a major American city. This tough, )Tj 0 -1.03 TD 0.192 Tw (smart, committed Jihadist was not about to betray his cohorts to )Tj T* 0.108 Tw (his hated enemies if interrogators stuck to the kid glove interroga-)Tj T* 0.332 Tw (tion rules demanded by human rights groups and, recently, by )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (most congressional Democrats. )Tj /F6 1 Tf 6.5 0 0 6.5 25 20 Tm 1 g 0 Tw [(VerDate Aug 31 2005 )-1076.9(11:36 Feb 04, 2009)-1076.9(Jkt 000000)-1076.9(PO 00000)-1076.9(Frm 00007)-1076.9(Fmt 6633)-1076.9(Sfmt 6601)-1076.9(H:\\WORK\\CONST\\061808\\42972.000)-1076.9(HJUD1)-1076.9(PsN: 42972)]TJ ET endstream endobj 30 0 obj << /ProcSet [/PDF /Text ] /Font << /F1 4 0 R /F6 9 0 R >> /ExtGState << /GS1 10 0 R >> >> endobj 32 0 obj << /Length 4744 >> stream BT /F1 1 Tf 10 0 0 10 303.22 661 Tm 0 g /GS1 gs 0 Tc 0 Tw (4 )Tj -14.622 -2 TD 0.288 Tw (Mr. Chairman, I believe that Mr. Taylor is correct. Al Qaeda )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.308 Tw (leader Osama bin Laden has said, It is our dutythis is his )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (quote: It is our duty to gain access to nuclear weapons. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.254 Tw (For example, at a May 16 Subcommittee hearing, I asked the )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.218 Tw (Democrat witness Marjorie Cohn, president of the National Law-)Tj T* 0.164 Tw (yers Guild, how she would write a statute defining how terrorists )Tj T* 0.11 Tw (should be treated when they refused to provide vital, lifesaving in-)Tj T* 0.144 Tw (formation voluntarily. I left it open to her. I said: Tell me what it )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (should be. Lets listen to her reply. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.07 Tw (What kind of statute would I write? I would write a statute that )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.178 Tw (says that when you are interrogating a prisoner and you want to )Tj T* 0.238 Tw (get information from him, you treat him with kindness, compas-)Tj T* 0.252 Tw (sion, and empathy. You gain his trust. You get him to like and )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (trust you, and then he will turn over information to you. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.074 Tw (Mr. Chairman, I am suggesting that it might be a little more dif-)Tj -1 -1 TD 0.132 Tw (ficult to get al Qaeda terrorists dedicated to the destruction of the )Tj T* 0.156 Tw (Western world to like and trust us. I am afraid it is a little more )Tj T* 0.138 Tw (complicated than that. I wish it werent. But I would suggest that )Tj T* 0.106 Tw (the statement was indeed dangerously naive. And I thank you and )Tj T* 0.3 Tw (the Chairman of the full Committee for your indulgence, and I )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (yield back. )Tj 1 -1 TD (Mr. N)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 185.1096 431 Tm 0 Tw (ADLER)Tj 10 0 0 10 213.9971 431 Tm 0.052 Tw (. I thank the gentleman. )Tj -5.6997 -1 TD 0.35 Tw (I now recognize for 5 minutes for an opening statement the )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.068 Tw (Chairman of the full Committee, the Judiciary Committee, the gen-)Tj T* 0.052 Tw (tleman from Michigan, Mr. Conyers. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.294 Tw (Mr. C)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 186.5996 391 Tm 0 Tw (ONYERS)Tj 10 0 0 10 221.567 391 Tm 0.294 Tw (. Thank you, Chairman Nadler. And to my good )Tj -7.4567 -1 TD 0.224 Tw (friend Trent Franks, the Ranking Member of this Subcommittee, )Tj T* 0.376 Tw (we have some excellent witnesses to continue the Committees )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (oversight responsibility. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.29 Tw (It is true you have been subjected, Mr. Franks, to almost 60 )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.212 Tw (hearings somewhere else, but that doesnt do us much good here )Tj T* 0.07 Tw (in this Committee. We have got our own individual responsibilities. )Tj T* 0.112 Tw (And I am glad you take exception with some of Senator Schumers )Tj T* 0.168 Tw (comments. I do, too. But what difference does it make? He is one )Tj T* 0.076 Tw (of the 535 of us. I take exception on occasion with your statements; )Tj T* 0.242 Tw (but I am not going to play them back and then tell you I dont )Tj T* 0.118 Tw (agree with some of them. And Marjorie Cohn, a wonderfully gifted )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (lawyer, I am sorry you thought that she was naive. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.168 Tw (But here is what we are trying to do. Here is what I think the )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.164 Tw (focus of this very important Committee on the Judiciary is about. )Tj T* 0.24 Tw (What we are trying to determine, how clear the legal advice in-)Tj T* 0.056 Tw (tended for the Central Intelligence Agency made its way to military )Tj T* 0.114 Tw (interrogators at Guantanamo Bay. Yesterday, and I dont have the )Tj T* 0.122 Tw (voiceover of Senator Carl Levin, the Chairman of the Armed Serv-)Tj T* (ices Committee, but he revealed comments by a particular CIA at-)Tj T* 0.172 Tw (torney at Guantanamo that, according to the Justice Department, )Tj T* 0.208 Tw (whether something is torture is, basically subject to perception. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.11 Tw (This lawyer also stated that, If the detainee dies, you are doing )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (it wrong. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.088 Tw (These comments, I think, demonstrate some of the flaws in some )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.166 Tw (of the legal opinions in this area, and I am hoping our witnesses )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (reaction to these statements will help bring clarification. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.114 Tw (Now, some of our research here has brought to my attention the )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.306 Tw (Central Intelligence Agencys network of secret prisons, of their )Tj /F6 1 Tf 6.5 0 0 6.5 25 20 Tm 1 g 0 Tw [(VerDate Aug 31 2005 )-1076.9(11:36 Feb 04, 2009)-1076.9(Jkt 000000)-1076.9(PO 00000)-1076.9(Frm 00008)-1076.9(Fmt 6633)-1076.9(Sfmt 6601)-1076.9(H:\\WORK\\CONST\\061808\\42972.000)-1076.9(HJUD1)-1076.9(PsN: 42972)]TJ ET endstream endobj 33 0 obj << /ProcSet [/PDF /Text ] /Font << /F1 4 0 R /F6 9 0 R >> /ExtGState << /GS1 10 0 R >> >> endobj 35 0 obj << /Length 5174 >> stream BT /F1 1 Tf 10 0 0 10 303.22 661 Tm 0 g /GS1 gs 0 Tc 0 Tw (5 )Tj -15.622 -2 TD 0.096 Tw (own use of beating and what is generally regarded as torture. This )Tj 0 -1 TD 0.208 Tw (was not the role of a civilian intelligence service in a democratic )Tj T* 0.156 Tw (society, but it seemed to have been clearly what the White House )Tj T* 0.138 Tw (wanted the CIA to do. And so I have been talking with our friend )Tj T* 0.098 Tw (from California, former legislator Tom Hayden, who has raised im-)Tj T* 0.062 Tw (portant questions regarding the rendition of subjects to foreign gov-)Tj T* 0.054 Tw (ernments and the use of torture in foreign detention facilities in Af-)Tj T* 0.138 Tw (ghanistan and in Iraq. And so I would welcome the views the dis-)Tj T* 0.194 Tw (tinguished colonel may have on any of these matters now and in )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (the future. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.356 Tw (Some reports indicate that have come to my attention when )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.18 Tw (questions were raised about the proper legal analysis of these in-)Tj T* 0.226 Tw (terrogation methods, those asking the questions were not always )Tj T* 0.082 Tw (given a fair hearing or were even pushed out of the way; and these )Tj T* 0.274 Tw (matters brought to my attention raise grave concerns about the )Tj T* 0.074 Tw (management of the Department of Justice. And I hope perhaps Mr. )Tj T* 0.09 Tw (Levin or others can help us shed light on these important and sen-)Tj T* 0.052 Tw (sitive issues. )Tj 1 -1 TD (Mr. I)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 181.0296 460.9999 Tm 0 Tw (SSA)Tj 10 0 0 10 196.8854 460.9999 Tm 0.052 Tw (. Would the Chairman yield for a question? )Tj -3.9885 -1 TD (Mr. C)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 184.1796 450.9999 Tm 0 Tw (ONYERS)Tj 10 0 0 10 219.147 450.9999 Tm 0.052 Tw (. I have always yielded to you. )Tj -6.2147 -1 TD 0.09 Tw (Mr. N)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 185.4896 441 Tm 0 Tw (ADLER)Tj 10 0 0 10 214.3771 441 Tm 0.09 Tw (. Without objection, the Chairman will have an addi-)Tj -6.7377 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (tional minute. )Tj 1 -1 TD (Mr. I)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 181.0296 421 Tm 0 Tw (SSA)Tj 10 0 0 10 196.8854 421 Tm 0.052 Tw (. For a colloquy, thank you. )Tj -3.9885 -1 TD 0.116 Tw (Mr. Chairman, as you know, the Administration has now admit-)Tj -1 -1 TD 0.134 Tw (ted that tapes which would allow us to know more in detail about )Tj T* 0.342 Tw (these extreme interrogation techniques were destroyed, and de-)Tj T* 0.196 Tw (stroyed by the orders of a relatively small group within the CIA. )Tj T* 0.636 Tw (Does the Chairman intend to, through Committee or Sub-)Tj T* 0.112 Tw (committee, hold hearings or pursue an investigation within our ju-)Tj T* 0.104 Tw (risdiction on that subject since, to a certain extent, we are arguing )Tj T* 0.212 Tw (about whether or not you know torture when you see it, and we )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (have been denied the ability to see it? )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.11 Tw (Mr. C)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 184.7596 320.9999 Tm 0 Tw (ONYERS)Tj 10 0 0 10 219.7271 320.9999 Tm 0.11 Tw (. I am interested in that. I share your concern. The )Tj -7.2727 -1 TD 0.134 Tw (Intelligence Committee has a similar interest. And, as a matter of )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (fact, you are on the Intelligence Committee. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.198 Tw (Mr. I)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 182.4896 290.9999 Tm 0 Tw (SSA)Tj 10 0 0 10 198.3454 290.9999 Tm 0.198 Tw (. I am, Mr. Chairman. But I do think in this case the )Tj -5.1345 -1 TD 0.432 Tw (destruction of material that would have been probative as to )Tj T* 0.218 Tw (whether or not torture occurred is well within the jurisdiction of )Tj T* 0.232 Tw (this Committee. It is no longer a secret once you know they de-)Tj T* 0.052 Tw (stroyed it. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.186 Tw (Mr. C)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 185.5196 240.9999 Tm 0 Tw (ONYERS)Tj 10 0 0 10 220.487 240.9999 Tm 0.186 Tw (. Thank you very much. I think that is something )Tj -7.3487 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (that we should take under consideration. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.068 Tw (Mr. I)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 181.1896 220.9999 Tm 0 Tw (SSA)Tj 10 0 0 10 197.0454 220.9999 Tm 0.068 Tw (. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you for the addi-)Tj -5.0045 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (tional time. )Tj 1 -1 TD (Mr. N)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 185.1096 200.9999 Tm 0 Tw (ADLER)Tj 10 0 0 10 213.9971 200.9999 Tm 0.052 Tw (. Thank you. )Tj -5.6997 -1 TD 0.244 Tw (I want to welcome our distinguished panel of witnesses today, )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (and I will introduce them. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.068 Tw (Daniel Levin is a partner at the firm of White & Case. He served )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.142 Tw (with the National Security Council as the senior associate counsel )Tj T* 0.134 Tw (to the President and legal adviser from February to October 2005. )Tj T* 0.262 Tw (He had previously served at the National Security Council from )Tj T* 0.224 Tw (1988 to 1990. He has had a long career with the Department of )Tj T* 0.244 Tw (Justice, serving as the Acting Assistant Attorney General in the )Tj T* 0.102 Tw (Office of Legal Counsel from 2004 to 2005. Prior to that, he served )Tj /F6 1 Tf 6.5 0 0 6.5 25 20 Tm 1 g 0 Tw [(VerDate Aug 31 2005 )-1076.9(11:36 Feb 04, 2009)-1076.9(Jkt 000000)-1076.9(PO 00000)-1076.9(Frm 00009)-1076.9(Fmt 6633)-1076.9(Sfmt 6601)-1076.9(H:\\WORK\\CONST\\061808\\42972.000)-1076.9(HJUD1)-1076.9(PsN: 42972)]TJ ET endstream endobj 36 0 obj << /ProcSet [/PDF /Text ] /Font << /F1 4 0 R /F6 9 0 R >> /ExtGState << /GS1 10 0 R >> >> endobj 38 0 obj << /Length 4636 >> stream BT /F1 1 Tf 10 0 0 10 303.22 661 Tm 0 g /GS1 gs 0 Tc 0 Tw (6 )Tj -15.622 -2 TD 0.152 Tw (as counsel to the Attorney General and as Chief of Staff to Attor-)Tj 0 -0.99 TD 0.15 Tw (ney General William Barr from 1991 to 1993. He is a graduate of )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (Harvard College and University of Chicago Law School. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.2 Tw (David Rivkin is no stranger to the Committee. Mr. Rivkin is a )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.058 Tw (partner with the law firm of Baker Hostetler. In the administration )Tj T* 0.114 Tw (of the first President Bush, he was Associate Executive Director of )Tj T* 0.278 Tw (the Presidents Council on Competitiveness at the White House. )Tj T* 0.062 Tw (While there, he was responsible for the review and analysis of legal )Tj T* 0.208 Tw (issues related to the regulatory review conducted by the Council. )Tj T* 0.06 Tw (He also served as the Special Assistant for Domestic Policy to then- )Tj T* 0.118 Tw (Vice President Dan Quayle. He holds a J.D. from Columbia School )Tj T* 0.156 Tw (of Law, a BSFS and M.A. in Soviet Affairs from Georgetown Uni-)Tj T* 0 Tw (versity. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.124 Tw (Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson is the visiting Pamela C. Harriman )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.208 Tw (Professor of Government and Public Policy at the College of Wil-)Tj T* 0.184 Tw (liam and Mary, and professorial lecturer in the university honors )Tj T* 0.504 Tw (program at George Washington University. Colonel Wilkerson )Tj T* 0.256 Tw (served as Chief of Staff to Secretary of State Colin Powell from )Tj T* 0.056 Tw (2002 to 2005, and prior to that he served for 31 years in the United )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (States Army from 1966 to 1997. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.136 Tw (We also expected to have with us today former Under Secretary )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.328 Tw (of Defense Douglas Feith. Mr. Feith has important information )Tj T* 0.084 Tw (about the approval of harsh interrogation policies for the U.S. mili-)Tj T* 0.072 Tw (tary. He reportedly, along with Defense Department General Coun-)Tj T* 0.304 Tw (sel Jim Haynes, recommended that Secretary Rumsfeld approve )Tj T* 0.126 Tw (such techniques in November 2002. Mr. Feith has never explained )Tj T* 0.102 Tw (that decision, and it is important to hear from him on this subject. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.152 Tw (Despite his prior commitment to testify, this morning Mr. Feith )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.092 Tw (informed the Committee through his counsel that he would not ap-)Tj T* 0.096 Tw (pear today because he is not willing to appear alongside one of our )Tj T* 0.108 Tw (other witnesses. Needless to say, it is an extraordinary disappoint-)Tj T* 0.08 Tw (ment for this witness not to come here and to go back on his prom-)Tj T* 0.19 Tw (ise to the Committee to appear today. Individuals often must ap-)Tj T* 0.436 Tw (pear before congressional Committees alongside witnesses that )Tj T* 0.176 Tw (they disagree with. Such concerns are no reason to decline to ap-)Tj T* 0.224 Tw (pear when you have said you will. We will reschedule a hearing )Tj T* 0.084 Tw (which Mr. Feith will appear so that we can elucidate his testimony )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (on this issue. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.174 Tw (Before we begin, it is customary for the Committee to swear in )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.084 Tw (its witnesses. If you would please stand and raise your right hands )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (to take the oath. )Tj 1 -1 TD ([Witnesses sworn.] )Tj T* 0.162 Tw (Mr. N)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 186.2096 221.2 Tm 0 Tw (ADLER)Tj 10 0 0 10 215.0971 221.2 Tm 0.162 Tw (. Without objection, your written statements will be )Tj -6.8097 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (made part of the record in their entirety. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.054 Tw (We would ask each of you to summarize your testimony in 5 min-)Tj -1 -1 TD 0.15 Tw (utes. To help you keep time, there is a timing light at your table. )Tj T* 0.078 Tw (When 1 minute remains, the light will switch from green to yellow, )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (and then to red when the 5 minutes are up. )Tj 1 -1 TD (I will now recognize first Mr. Levin. )Tj /F4 1 Tf 9 0 0 9 177.88 145 Tm 0.0422 Tw (TESTIMONY OF DANIEL LEVIN, WHITE & CASE LLP )Tj /F1 1 Tf 10 0 0 10 157 131 Tm 0.068 Tw (Mr. L)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 183.7896 131 Tm 0 Tw (EVIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 205.1173 131 Tm 0.068 Tw (. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for inviting me )Tj -5.8117 -1 TD 0.234 Tw (to testify today. As you can tell, since leaving Government since )Tj T* 0.144 Tw (2005, I have avoided making any public statements on these mat-)Tj /F6 1 Tf 6.5 0 0 6.5 25 20 Tm 1 g 0 Tw [(VerDate Aug 31 2005 )-1076.9(11:36 Feb 04, 2009)-1076.9(Jkt 000000)-1076.9(PO 00000)-1076.9(Frm 00010)-1076.9(Fmt 6633)-1076.9(Sfmt 6601)-1076.9(H:\\WORK\\CONST\\061808\\42972.000)-1076.9(HJUD1)-1076.9(PsN: 42972)]TJ ET endstream endobj 39 0 obj << /ProcSet [/PDF /Text ] /Font << /F1 4 0 R /F4 7 0 R /F6 9 0 R >> /ExtGState << /GS1 10 0 R >> >> endobj 41 0 obj << /Length 4658 >> stream BT /F1 1 Tf 10 0 0 10 303.22 661 Tm 0 g /GS1 gs 0 Tc 0 Tw (7 )Tj -15.622 -2 TD 0.088 Tw (ters; and, to be perfectly honest with you, I would rather keep that )Tj 0 -1.02 TD 0.14 Tw (record intact. But I do believe that a public discussion and debate )Tj T* 0.08 Tw (of the legal issues involved and the process by which legal opinions )Tj T* 0.112 Tw (were issued and relied upon is important, and I will do my best to )Tj T* 0.24 Tw (answer your questions within the limits of what the Justice De-)Tj T* 0.226 Tw (partment has authorized me to talk about. I will avoid any sub-)Tj T* 0.29 Tw (stantive discussion in the opening remarks, but I would like to )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (make briefly a couple of general points. )Tj 1 -1.02 TD 0.09 Tw (First, in my view, the legal issues we are going to discuss, in ad-)Tj -1 -1.02 TD 0.162 Tw (dition to being very important, are also extremely difficult. Issues )Tj T* 0.21 Tw (involving core Presidential powers and the interplay between the )Tj T* 0.202 Tw (President and Congress are among the most difficult I have ever )Tj T* 0.058 Tw (tried to analyze. And although there have been some significant de-)Tj T* 0.09 Tw (cisions by the Supreme Court in recent years, and indeed in recent )Tj T* 0.202 Tw (days, at the time many of these issues were being addressed fol-)Tj T* 0.194 Tw (lowing the events of 9/11, there was very little case law to guide )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (the analysis. )Tj 1 -1.02 TD 0.158 Tw (Arguments from the Framers writings or historical practice are )Tj -1 -1.02 TD 0.156 Tw (frequently murky at best. The stakes are high. You are often told )Tj T* 0.094 Tw (that lives, and perhaps many, many lives, are at stake. And classi-)Tj T* 0.074 Tw (fication concerns often limit whom you can consult. And I will have )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (a little more to say about that in a minute. )Tj 1 -1.02 TD 0.124 Tw (In short, they are just plain hard questions. And I think the de-)Tj -1 -1.02 TD 0.2 Tw (bate would benefit, frankly, if people on both sides acknowledged )Tj T* 0.096 Tw (that fact and also perhaps showed a little more humility in stating )Tj T* 0.062 Tw (their opinions. Lawyers who say the answers to these questions are )Tj T* 0.202 Tw (either obviously yes or clearly no are either a lot smarter than I )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (am or oversimplifying things. )Tj 1 -1.02 TD 0.28 Tw (And I will start that process. I tried my very best to answer )Tj -1 -1.02 TD 0.158 Tw (these questions correctly, but I will be the first to say that I may )Tj T* 0.168 Tw (have gotten it wrong. And I will have more to say about the con-)Tj T* 0.052 Tw (sequences of that if I did make mistakes at the end. )Tj 1 -1.02 TD 0.13 Tw (Second, in discussing these legal issues, we need to be very pre-)Tj -1 -1.02 TD 0.108 Tw (cise about what question is being asked. To take an obvious exam-)Tj T* 0.098 Tw (ple, if the question is, is a certain technique torture, you first need )Tj T* 0.174 Tw (to define exactly what the technique is. And I expect we may get )Tj T* 0.28 Tw (into this more, but many words that are used to describe tech-)Tj T* 0.098 Tw (niques do not have precise definitions, and they may, in fact, cover )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (a wide range of conduct. )Tj 1 -1.02 TD 0.202 Tw (Just as a simple example, sleep deprivation can obviously vary )Tj -1 -1.02 TD 0.156 Tw (significantly in duration. It can also vary significantly in how you )Tj T* 0.114 Tw (keep the person awake. And those differences may very well affect )Tj T* 0.204 Tw (the legal analysis. And the same is true of waterboarding, which )Tj T* 0.084 Tw (is a term that is used to cover to a very wide range of conduct that )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (may have significant differences in legal analysis. )Tj 1 -1.02 TD 0.126 Tw (It is also important, frankly, to be precise about what you mean )Tj -1 -1.02 TD 0.238 Tw (by torture. There is a definition under U.S. law where Congress )Tj T* 0.108 Tw (has defined the term, although using words that I believe are very )Tj T* 0.168 Tw (hard to apply. There is a different definition, or, more accurately, )Tj 0 -1.01 TD 0.244 Tw (definitions, under international law, the Convention against Tor-)Tj T* 0.09 Tw (ture being perhaps the most prominent. The definitions under U.S. )Tj T* 0.232 Tw (law and under the Convention differ in significant respects, par-)Tj T* 0.052 Tw (ticularly when it comes to the nonphysical forms of torture. )Tj /F6 1 Tf 6.5 0 0 6.5 25 20 Tm 1 g 0 Tw [(VerDate Aug 31 2005 )-1076.9(11:36 Feb 04, 2009)-1076.9(Jkt 000000)-1076.9(PO 00000)-1076.9(Frm 00011)-1076.9(Fmt 6633)-1076.9(Sfmt 6601)-1076.9(H:\\WORK\\CONST\\061808\\42972.000)-1076.9(HJUD1)-1076.9(PsN: 42972)]TJ ET endstream endobj 42 0 obj << /ProcSet [/PDF /Text ] /Font << /F1 4 0 R /F6 9 0 R >> /ExtGState << /GS1 10 0 R >> >> endobj 46 0 obj << /Length 4664 >> stream BT /F1 1 Tf 10 0 0 10 303.22 661 Tm 0 g /GS1 gs 0 Tc 0 Tw (8 )Tj -14.622 -2 TD 0.154 Tw (There is also the colloquial use of the term, which I believe dif-)Tj -1 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (fers from all these definitions. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.094 Tw (And let me apologize for any disruption my daughter causes, but )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (I wanted to bring her along. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.422 Tw (And there are the Geneva Conventions, which use different )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.222 Tw (terms in addition to torture, but which certainly prohibit torture )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (and much more. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.086 Tw (This emphasis on precision in the terms and the questions asked )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.138 Tw (may sound overly lawyerly, and I suppose in some sense it is, but )Tj T* 0.08 Tw (we are talking here about legal questions that were being analyzed )Tj T* 0.134 Tw (by lawyers getting legal advice. And I think that raises one of the )Tj T* 0.136 Tw (most important issues in this area. I think it is critical to remem-)Tj T* 0.088 Tw (ber that the legal analysis should begin and not end the discussion )Tj T* 0.138 Tw (of whether to do something. If something is illegal, then obviously )Tj T* 0.19 Tw (it is not an option; you simply cant do it. But if it is legal, then )Tj T* 0.164 Tw (it is only that, an option. And there should be a policy discussion )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (about whether it is a good idea. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.268 Tw (Philip Zelazo gave an interesting talk about this, and I agree )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.062 Tw (with him that in this area in particular, too often the legal analysis )Tj T* 0.29 Tw (replaces the policy analysis, and the question tended to become )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (simply: Is it legal? And, if so, we will do it. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.086 Tw (I think it may have been understandable in the immediate after-)Tj -1 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (math of 9/11, but as time went on, it became increasingly clear that )Tj T* 0.248 Tw (many of the steps we were taking, even if legal, had significant )Tj T* 0.196 Tw (costs, and costs which might well outweigh any benefits we were )Tj T* 0.188 Tw (receiving. And this is just my personal view, but I think that we )Tj T* 0.184 Tw (in the Government were sometimes too slow to recognize and ad-)Tj T* 0.052 Tw (just our policies accordingly. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.056 Tw (Focusing on the legal analysis, I think there is a valuable process )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.098 Tw (lesson to be learned from our experience in this area. The opinions )Tj T* 0.094 Tw (I worked on benefited enormously from comments from other parts )Tj T* 0.082 Tw (of the Justice Department and the Government. And, in particular, )Tj T* 0.084 Tw (the opinion I wrote at the end of 2004 benefited from detailed com-)Tj T* 0.104 Tw (ments from lawyers at the State Department and the Criminal Di-)Tj T* 0.292 Tw (vision of Justice, although it certainly bears repeating that any )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (mistakes in that opinion are entirely my responsibility. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.132 Tw (There is an incredible wealth of legal talent around the Govern-)Tj -1 -1 TD 0.158 Tw (ment, and I believe it is a huge mistake not to take advantage of )Tj T* 0.212 Tw (it. You wont always agree with what other lawyers have to say, )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (but you almost always benefit from hearing it. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.088 Tw (I dont know why, but my understanding is that some of the ear-)Tj -1 -1 TD 0.288 Tw (lier opinions were very tightly held and were not circulated for )Tj T* 0.192 Tw (comments. I dont think that was justified by any legitimate con-)Tj T* 0.228 Tw (cerns about classification or leaks. Rather, I think it was a mis-)Tj T* 0.166 Tw (take; the opinions would have benefited from broader review, and )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (I think we paid some price for that not having taken place. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.176 Tw (I would like to make two final points. First, there has been re-)Tj -1 -1 TD 0.156 Tw (porting about certain steps I may have taken in working on opin-)Tj T* 0.172 Tw (ions in this area, and some people have said some very flattering )Tj T* 0.204 Tw (things; some have said not so flattering things as well. I am not )Tj T* 0.1 Tw (authorized to discuss that matter, but I can say that while it is al-)Tj T* 0.154 Tw (ways nice to have nice things said about you, they are completely )Tj T* 0.09 Tw (undeserved. And I dont say that out of any false sense of modesty, )Tj T* 0.13 Tw (but the simple fact is I did nothing that thousands and thousands )Tj /F6 1 Tf 6.5 0 0 6.5 25 20 Tm 1 g 0 Tw [(VerDate Aug 31 2005 )-1076.9(11:36 Feb 04, 2009)-1076.9(Jkt 000000)-1076.9(PO 00000)-1076.9(Frm 00012)-1076.9(Fmt 6633)-1076.9(Sfmt 6601)-1076.9(H:\\WORK\\CONST\\061808\\42972.000)-1076.9(HJUD1)-1076.9(PsN: 42972)]TJ ET endstream endobj 47 0 obj << /ProcSet [/PDF /Text ] /Font << /F1 4 0 R /F6 9 0 R >> /ExtGState << /GS1 10 0 R >> >> endobj 49 0 obj << /Length 5488 >> stream BT /F1 1 Tf 10 0 0 10 303.22 661 Tm 0 g /GS1 gs 0 Tc 0 Tw (9 )Tj -15.622 -2 TD 0.132 Tw (of members of our military had not done during training. I simply )Tj 0 -0.99 TD 0.14 Tw (took the steps that I felt I needed to take in order to do the work )Tj T* 0.21 Tw (that I was privileged to be assigned, and I deserve no particular )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (credit for that. )Tj 1 -0.99 TD 0.122 Tw (Finally, many people both at OLC and elsewhere in the Govern-)Tj -1 -0.99 TD 0.1 Tw (ment contributed to the opinions I wrote. I will not name them be-)Tj T* 0.184 Tw (cause I do not want them dragged into the public discussion, but )Tj T* 0.086 Tw (they know who they are, and I am eternally grateful to them. Any-)Tj T* 0.358 Tw (thing useful in the opinions is almost certainly attributable to )Tj T* 0 Tw (them. )Tj 1 -0.99 TD 0.058 Tw (That said, I alone am responsible for any errors and any opinions )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.144 Tw (issued while I was in charge of OLC. I did my best to answer the )Tj T* 0.084 Tw (questions correctly, and I hope I succeeded. But to the extent there )Tj T* 0.18 Tw (are errors in them, I am the person, and the only person, who is )Tj T* 0.242 Tw (responsible for that. And in particular, if anyone in the Govern-)Tj T* 0.144 Tw (ment acts on the basis of any legal advice I gave, and that advice )Tj T* 0.058 Tw (turns out to be mistaken, I am the one who should be held account-)Tj T* 0.172 Tw (able, not some agent or officer or soldier acting in good-faith reli-)Tj T* 0.226 Tw (ance on that advice. When someone in the Government does the )Tj T* 0.124 Tw (right thing by seeking legal advice, they should not be punished if )Tj T* 0.162 Tw (the advice turned out to be mistaken. It is an incredible privilege )Tj T* 0.214 Tw (to be asked to work on these issues as a lawyer for the Govern-)Tj T* 0.19 Tw (ment. We who have been privileged to serve as Government law-)Tj T* 0.184 Tw (yers are responsible for the advice we give, and I unconditionally )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (and absolutely accept that responsibility. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.172 Tw (I would be happy to try to answer any questions you have, but )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.09 Tw (if I could just add one point. As a witness sitting here in a hearing )Tj T* 0.094 Tw (like this, I feel I have some obligation to say something about this. )Tj T* 0.178 Tw (And I am very limited in what I think I can say; but if the Sub-)Tj T* 0.172 Tw (committee has been informed that there was a total of 3 minutes )Tj T* 0.35 Tw (of waterboarding, I would suggest the Subcommittee should go )Tj T* 0.086 Tw (back and get that clarified because that, I dont believe, is an accu-)Tj T* 0.052 Tw (rate statement. )Tj 1 -1 TD (Mr. N)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 185.1096 312 Tm 0 Tw (ADLER)Tj 10 0 0 10 213.9971 312 Tm 0.052 Tw (. I thank you very much for your testimony. )Tj -5.6997 -1 TD ([The prepared statement of Mr. Levin follows:] )Tj 8 0 0 8 230.78 286 Tm 0 Tw (P)Tj 6.4 0 0 6.0958 236.1159 286 Tm (REPARED)Tj 8 0 0 8 271.1079 286 Tm (S)Tj 6.4 0 0 6.0958 276.1478 286 Tm [(TATEMENT)-412.5(OF)]TJ 8 0 0 8 328.6022 286 Tm (D)Tj 6.4 0 0 6.0958 334.826 286 Tm (ANIEL)Tj 8 0 0 8 358.7972 286 Tm (L)Tj 6.4 0 0 6.0958 364.1331 286 Tm (EVIN)Tj 8 0 0 8 381.1956 286 Tm ( )Tj -29.2744 -1.625 TD 0.0525 Tw (Mr. Chairman and members of the Committee: )Tj 1 -1.25 TD 0.175 Tw (Thank you for inviting me to testify today. Since leaving government in 2005, I )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.105 Tw (have avoided making any public statements on these matters. But I do believe that )Tj T* 0.1825 Tw (a public discussion and debate of the legal issues involvedand of the process by )Tj T* 0.1675 Tw (which legal opinions were issued and relied uponis important. And I will do my )Tj T* 0.0825 Tw (best to answer your questions within the limits of what the Justice Department has )Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (authorized me to talk about. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.06 Tw (I will avoid any substantive discussion of the issues in these opening remarks, but )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.0525 Tw (I would like to briefly make a couple of general points. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.1775 Tw (First, the legal issues we are going to discussin addition to being very impor-)Tj -1 -1 TD 0.25 Tw (tantare, in my view, also extremely difficult. Issues involving core presidential )Tj T* 0.13 Tw (powers and the interplay between the President and Congress are among the most )Tj T* 0.09 Tw (difficult I have ever tried to analyze. Although there have been significant decisions )Tj T* 0.1 Tw (by the Supreme Court in recent yearsand daysat the time many of these issues )Tj T* 0.08 Tw (were being addressed following the horrific events of September 11, 2001, there was )Tj T* 0.1125 Tw (very little case law to guide the analysis. Arguments from the Framers writings or )Tj T* 0.12 Tw (historical practice are frequently murky at best. The stakes are high: you are often )Tj T* 0.2225 Tw (told that lives, and perhaps many lives, are at stake. And classification concerns )Tj T* 0.1925 Tw (often limit whom you can consulta topic Ill address a little more in a moment. )Tj T* 0.16 Tw (In short, they are just plain hard questions. And I think the debate would benefit )Tj T* 0.055 Tw (if people on both sides acknowledged that fact and also perhaps showed a little more )Tj /F6 1 Tf 6.5 0 0 6.5 25 20 Tm 1 g 0 Tw [(VerDate Aug 31 2005 )-1076.9(11:36 Feb 04, 2009)-1076.9(Jkt 000000)-1076.9(PO 00000)-1076.9(Frm 00013)-1076.9(Fmt 6633)-1076.9(Sfmt 6621)-1076.9(H:\\WORK\\CONST\\061808\\42972.000)-1076.9(HJUD1)-1076.9(PsN: 42972)]TJ ET endstream endobj 50 0 obj << /ProcSet [/PDF /Text ] /Font << /F1 4 0 R /F6 9 0 R >> /ExtGState << /GS1 10 0 R >> >> endobj 52 0 obj << /Length 6895 >> stream BT /F1 1 Tf 10 0 0 10 300.44 661 Tm 0 g /GS1 gs 0 Tc 0 Tw (10 )Tj 8 0 0 8 147 643 Tm 0.1775 Tw (humility in stating their opinions. Lawyers who say the answers to some of these )Tj 0 -0.9875 TD 0.1975 Tw (questions are obviously yes or clearly no are either a lot smarter than me or are )Tj T* 0.1775 Tw (oversimplifying things. And let me start that processI tried my very best to an-)Tj T* 0.195 Tw (swer these questions correctly, but I will be the first to say I may have gotten it )Tj T* 0.1275 Tw (wrong. And Ill have a little more to say about the consequences of that at the end )Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (of these remarks. )Tj 1 -0.9875 TD 0.2125 Tw (Second, in discussing these legal issues we need to be very precise about what )Tj -1 -0.9875 TD 0.095 Tw (question is being asked. To take an obvious example, if the question is Is a certain )Tj T* 0.16 Tw (technique torture, you first need to define exactly what the technique is. I expect )Tj T* 0.2025 Tw (well get into this some, but many words that are used to describe techniques do )Tj T* 0.1775 Tw (not have precise definitions and may cover a wide range of conduct. For example, )Tj T* 0.2125 Tw (sleep deprivation can vary significantly in duration. It can also vary significantly )Tj T* 0.0925 Tw (in how a person is kept awake. Those differences may well affect the legal analysis. )Tj T* 0.125 Tw (The same is true for waterboardingit has been used to cover a very wide range )Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (of practices that may require differences in analysis. )Tj 1 -0.9875 TD 0.175 Tw (And it is also important to be precise about what you mean by torture. There )Tj -1 -0.9875 TD 0.07 Tw (is a definition under U.S. law, where Congress has defined the term, although using )Tj T* 0.075 Tw (words that I believe are very hard to applysomething I assume we will get to dur-)Tj T* 0.18 Tw (ing the questioning. There is a different definition, or more accurately definitions, )Tj T* 0.2025 Tw (under international lawthe Convention Against Torture being perhaps the most )Tj T* 0.155 Tw (prominent. The definitions under U.S. law and under the Convention differ in sig-)Tj T* 0.1675 Tw (nificant respects when it comes to non-physical forms of torture. There is also the )Tj T* 0.1375 Tw (colloquial use of the term, which I believe differs from all of these definitions. And )Tj T* 0.2075 Tw (there are the Geneva Conventions, which use different terms but which certainly )Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (prohibit torture and much more. )Tj 1 -0.9875 TD 0.24 Tw (This emphasis on precision in the terms used and questions asked may sound )Tj -1 -0.9875 TD 0.155 Tw (overly lawyerlyand I suppose in some sense it is. But we are talking here about )Tj T* 0.07 Tw (legal questions that were being analyzed by lawyers giving legal advice. And I think )Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (that raises one of the most important issues in this area. )Tj 1 -0.9875 TD 0.2 Tw (I think it is critical to remember that the legal analysis should begin, not end, )Tj -1 -0.9875 TD 0.205 Tw (the discussion of whether to do something. If something is illegal, than obviously )Tj T* 0.0925 Tw (it is not an option. However, if it is legal than it is only thatan optionand there )Tj T* 0.17 Tw (should be a policy discussion about whether it is a good idea. Philip Zelikow gave )Tj T* 0.1475 Tw (an interesting talk about this and I agree with him that in this area in particular )Tj T* 0.1175 Tw (too often the legal analysis replaced the policy analysis. The question tended to be-)Tj T* 0.0875 Tw (come simply is it legal and if so well do it. I think that may have been understand-)Tj T* 0.06 Tw (able in the immediate aftermath of 9/11. But as time went on it became increasingly )Tj T* 0.185 Tw (clear that many of the steps we were takingeven if legalhad significant costs, )Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (costs which might well outweigh any benefits we were receiving. This is just my per-)Tj T* 0.08 Tw (sonal view, but I think we were too slow to recognize some of those costs and adjust )Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (some of our policies accordingly. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.21 Tw (Focusing on the legal analysis, I think there is a valuable process lesson to be )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.1025 Tw (learned from our experience in this area. The opinions I worked on benefitted enor-)Tj T* 0.105 Tw (mously from comments from other parts of the Justice Department and the govern-)Tj T* 0.1125 Tw (ment. In particular, the opinion I wrote at the end of 2004 benefitted from detailed )Tj T* 0.1075 Tw (comments from lawyers at the State Department and the Criminal Division in Jus-)Tj T* 0.1375 Tw (tice, although it bears repeating that any mistakes in that opinion are entirely my )Tj T* 0.145 Tw (responsibility. There is an incredible wealth of legal talent around the government )Tj T* 0.1925 Tw (and I believe it is a mistake not to take advantage of it. You wont always agree )Tj T* 0.0825 Tw (with what other lawyers may have to say, but you almost always benefit from hear-)Tj T* 0.065 Tw (ing it. I do not know why, but my understanding is that some of the earlier opinions )Tj T* 0.2 Tw (were very tightly held and were not circulated for comments. I do not think that )Tj T* 0.31 Tw (was justified by any legitimate concerns about classification or leaks. Rather, I )Tj T* 0.1175 Tw (think that was a mistake and that the opinions would have benefited from broader )Tj T* 0 Tw (review. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.0525 Tw (Let me make two final points. )Tj T* 0.14 Tw (First, there has been reporting about certain steps I may have taken in working )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.2375 Tw (on opinions in this area. And some people have said some very flattering things )Tj T* 0.165 Tw (about me. I am not authorized to discuss that matter. But I can say that while it )Tj T* 0.145 Tw (is always nice to have such things said about you they are completely undeserved. )Tj T* 0.065 Tw (I dont say that out of any sense of false modestythe simple fact is that I did noth-)Tj T* 0.095 Tw (ing that thousands and thousands of members of our military have not done during )Tj T* 0.18 Tw (training. I simply took the steps I felt I needed to take in order to do the work I )Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (was privileged to be assigned and I deserve no special credit for that. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.17 Tw (Finally, many, many people both at OLC and elsewhere in the government con-)Tj -1 -1 TD 0.175 Tw (tributed to the opinions I wrote. I will not name them because I dont want them )Tj T* 0.1425 Tw (dragged into the public discussion but they know who they are and I am eternally )Tj T* 0.13 Tw (grateful to them. Anything useful in those opinions is almost certainly attributable )Tj /F6 1 Tf 6.5 0 0 6.5 25 20 Tm 1 g 0 Tw [(VerDate Aug 31 2005 )-1076.9(11:36 Feb 04, 2009)-1076.9(Jkt 000000)-1076.9(PO 00000)-1076.9(Frm 00014)-1076.9(Fmt 6633)-1076.9(Sfmt 6621)-1076.9(H:\\WORK\\CONST\\061808\\42972.000)-1076.9(HJUD1)-1076.9(PsN: 42972)]TJ ET endstream endobj 53 0 obj << /ProcSet [/PDF /Text ] /Font << /F1 4 0 R /F6 9 0 R >> /ExtGState << /GS1 10 0 R >> >> endobj 55 0 obj << /Length 5079 >> stream BT /F1 1 Tf 10 0 0 10 300.44 661 Tm 0 g /GS1 gs 0 Tc 0 Tw (11 )Tj 8 0 0 8 147 643 Tm 0.2225 Tw (to them. That said, I alone am responsible for any errors in any opinions issued )Tj 0 -1 TD 0.0525 Tw (while I was in charge of OLC. I did my best to answer questions correctlyand hope )Tj T* 0.135 Tw (I succeededbut to the extent there are any errors I am the personand the only )Tj T* 0.1175 Tw (personresponsible for them. And in particular, if anyone in the government acted )Tj T* 0.1675 Tw (on the basis of any legal advice I gave, and that advice turns out to be mistaken, )Tj T* (I am the one who should be held accountable, not some agent or officer or soldier )Tj T* 0.1125 Tw (acting in good faith reliance on that advice. When someone in the government does )Tj T* 0.11 Tw (the right thing by seeking legal advice, they should not then be punished if the ad-)Tj T* 0.165 Tw (vice turns out to be mistaken. It is an incredible privilege to be asked to work on )Tj T* 0.13 Tw (these issues as a lawyer for the U.S. Government. We who have been privileged to )Tj T* 0.1175 Tw (serve as government lawyers are responsible for the advice we give, and I uncondi-)Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (tionally and absolutely accept that responsibility. )Tj 1 -1 TD (I would be happy to try to answer any questions you may have. )Tj 10 0 0 10 157 531.0001 Tm 0.052 Tw (Mr. N)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 185.1096 531.0001 Tm 0 Tw (ADLER)Tj 10 0 0 10 213.9971 531.0001 Tm 0.052 Tw (. I now recognize Mr. Rivkin for 5 minutes. )Tj /F4 1 Tf 9 0 0 9 222.2 514.8001 Tm 0.0422 Tw (TESTIMONY OF DAVID B. RIVKIN, )Tj 0.7156 -1.0889 TD (PARTNER, BAKER HOSTETLER )Tj /F1 1 Tf 10 0 0 10 157 491.0001 Tm 0.512 Tw (Mr. R)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 188.7796 491.0001 Tm 0 Tw (IVKIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 213.8112 491.0001 Tm 0.512 Tw (. Chairman Nadler, Chairman Conyers, Ranking )Tj -6.6811 -1 TD 0.162 Tw (Member Franks, Members of the Subcommittee, it is my pleasure )Tj T* 0.252 Tw (to appear before you again to continue the dialogue about these )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (very important issues. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.13 Tw (I realize, of course, both from these hearings and other settings, )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.106 Tw (but a number of Administrations legal positions have become pub-)Tj T* 0.29 Tw (licly known have drawn considerable criticisms, and that is not )Tj T* 0.164 Tw (surprising, to state the obvious. The question that Administration )Tj T* 0.264 Tw (lawyers have sought to address, particularly issues dealing with )Tj T* 0.222 Tw (procedures for interrogating captured enemy combatants, are un-)Tj T* 0.084 Tw (comfortable ones. They certainly dont sit well with us or most peo-)Tj T* 0.178 Tw (ple who have 21st century sensibilities. Many of the legal conclu-)Tj T* 0.14 Tw (sions that have been reached strike people, many people, as being )Tj T* 0.122 Tw (excessively harsh. I should point out, of course, that some of these )Tj T* 0.054 Tw (conclusions have been watered down, and as a result of internal de-)Tj T* 0.216 Tw (bates and various pressures have been brought to bear upon the )Tj T* 0 Tw (Administration. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.156 Tw (But the important thing I want to emphasize, at least speaking )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.068 Tw (for myself, is while I would not defend each and every aspect of the )Tj T* 0.164 Tw (Administrations post-September 11 wartime policies, and with all )Tj T* 0.198 Tw (due regard, and I agree entirely with my good friend Dan Levin, )Tj T* 0.132 Tw (I would in general vigorously defend the overall exercise of asking )Tj T* 0.2 Tw (difficult questions and trying to work through them. And I think )Tj T* 0.216 Tw (it would be regrettable if the very exercise of asking these ques-)Tj T* 0.052 Tw (tions gets stigmatized. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.25 Tw (I am not surprised by evidence of vigorous internal debates. I )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.276 Tw (have had the privilege of working approximately 9 years in the )Tj T* 0.162 Tw (Government, and dealt with issues, frankly speaking, that were a )Tj T* 0.202 Tw (lot less contentious and less momentous than the ones that have )Tj T* 0.2 Tw (arisen since 9/11. And I can tell you, on these issues you always )Tj T* 0.228 Tw (had vigorous debate. And I think that, at least in my view, and )Tj T* 0.104 Tw (based upon everything I have heard and seen and read, the people )Tj T* 0.164 Tw (involved on all sides of those debates are people in all good faith, )Tj T* 0.126 Tw (they are all patriots. I certainly would not want to impugn the in-)Tj T* 0.088 Tw (tegrity of either side and suggest that there were villains or angels )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (in the debate. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.146 Tw (To me, the fact that this debate was undertaken at all and was )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.192 Tw (done in such a thorough fashion with lots of ebbs and flows over )Tj T* 0.07 Tw (a period of years attests to the vigor and strength of our democracy )Tj /F6 1 Tf 6.5 0 0 6.5 25 20 Tm 1 g 0 Tw [(VerDate Aug 31 2005 )-1076.9(11:36 Feb 04, 2009)-1076.9(Jkt 000000)-1076.9(PO 00000)-1076.9(Frm 00015)-1076.9(Fmt 6633)-1076.9(Sfmt 6601)-1076.9(H:\\WORK\\CONST\\061808\\42972.000)-1076.9(HJUD1)-1076.9(PsN: 42972)]TJ ET endstream endobj 56 0 obj << /ProcSet [/PDF /Text ] /Font << /F1 4 0 R /F4 7 0 R /F6 9 0 R >> /ExtGState << /GS1 10 0 R >> >> endobj 58 0 obj << /Length 5471 >> stream BT /F1 1 Tf 10 0 0 10 300.44 661 Tm 0 g /GS1 gs 0 Tc 0 Tw (12 )Tj -15.344 -2 TD 0.152 Tw (and the Administrations commitment to a rule of law even under )Tj 0 -0.99 TD 0.166 Tw (the most serious of circumstances. I know I have made this point )Tj T* 0.164 Tw (before, but I want to make it again. I dont know many examples )Tj T* 0.202 Tw (of even the most democratic of our allies who have ever engaged )Tj T* 0.186 Tw (in such a probing and searching legal exercise in wartime. And I )Tj T* 0.21 Tw (certainly strongly defend the overarching legal framework chosen )Tj T* 0.266 Tw (by the Administration of which the interrogation procedures are )Tj T* 0.186 Tw (but a subset. In fact, I believe that many criticisms that seem to )Tj T* 0.06 Tw (dwell on the interrogation-related issues really amount to the rejec-)Tj T* 0.148 Tw (tion of a legal framework rooted in laws of war that the Adminis-)Tj T* 0.052 Tw (tration has chosen. )Tj 1 -0.99 TD 0.14 Tw (And I think that behind the inquiry the Administration has un-)Tj -1 -0.99 TD 0.106 Tw (dertaken lies a very stark fact. In this war on terror, the Adminis-)Tj T* 0.08 Tw (tration, the U.S., has an obligation not only to defeat enemy forces; )Tj T* 0.286 Tw (it must anticipate and prevent deliberate attacks on its civilian )Tj T* 0.178 Tw (populations, which is al Qaedas preferred target. And I think we )Tj T* 0.236 Tw (all agree that obtaining intelligence is both vital and difficult in )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (this war. )Tj 1 -0.99 TD 0.178 Tw (I think despite some arguments to the contrary, there is ample )Tj -1 -0.99 TD 0.246 Tw (evidence that the conventional interrogation techniques have not )Tj T* 0.058 Tw (produced desired results in partsome of the reasons that Ranking )Tj T* 0.13 Tw (Member Franks usedin part because of an inability of our inter-)Tj T* 0.124 Tw (rogators to use sufficient pressure points being sufficiently in tune )Tj T* 0.116 Tw (to some of the cultural and other traditions of the people involved. )Tj T* 0.056 Tw (But I dont think anybody can seriously argue that harsh interroga-)Tj T* 0.324 Tw (tion was used as a matter of carelessness or designed to have )Tj T* 0 Tw (shortcuts. )Tj 1 -0.99 TD 0.188 Tw (I think that the conventional interrogation techniques have not )Tj -1 -0.99 TD 0.068 Tw (worked. I know this is a matter that is being contested. It certainly )Tj T* 0.158 Tw (was contested in the last hearing I attended as to whether or not )Tj T* 0.186 Tw (the harsh techniques have produced good answers. But I think it )Tj 0 -1 TD 0.208 Tw (is a copout, because if it didnt, there would be really nothing to )Tj T* 0 Tw (debate. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.354 Tw (Let me stop here and say I look forward to your questions. )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (Thank you. )Tj 1 -1 TD (Mr. N)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 185.1096 294 Tm 0 Tw (ADLER)Tj 10 0 0 10 213.9971 294 Tm 0.052 Tw (. I thank you. )Tj -5.6997 -1 TD ([The prepared statement of Mr. Rivkin follows:] )Tj 8 0 0 8 217.94 268 Tm 0 Tw (P)Tj 6.4 0 0 6.0958 223.2759 268 Tm (REPARED)Tj 8 0 0 8 258.2679 268 Tm (S)Tj 6.4 0 0 6.0958 263.3078 268 Tm [(TATEMENT)-412.5(OF)]TJ 8 0 0 8 315.7621 268 Tm (D)Tj 6.4 0 0 6.0958 321.9861 268 Tm (AVID)Tj 8 0 0 8 341.4517 268 Tm 0.0525 Tw (B. R)Tj 6.4 0 0 6.0958 357.8714 268 Tm 0 Tw (IVKIN)Tj 8 0 0 8 377.897 268 Tm 0.0525 Tw (, J)Tj 6.4 0 0 6.0958 387.2129 268 Tm 0 Tw (R)Tj 8 0 0 8 391.8337 268 Tm (. )Tj -29.6042 -1.625 TD 0.21 Tw (Lynching lawyers, as Shakespeare once suggested, has never appealed much to )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.09 Tw (the legal profession itselfliterally or figuratively. But an exception apparently will )Tj T* 0.0675 Tw (be made for a group of attorneys who advised President Bush and his national secu-)Tj T* 0.215 Tw (rity staff in the aftermath of 9/11. Theyve been subject to an increasingly deter-)Tj T* 0.1675 Tw (mined campaign of public obloquy by law professors, activist lawyers and pundits. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.1825 Tw (Their legal competence and ethics have been questioned. Suggestions have even )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.0625 Tw (been made that they can and should be held criminally responsible for war crimes, )Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (because their legal advice supposedly led to detainee abuses at Abu Ghraib and else-)Tj T* 0 Tw (where. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.135 Tw (The targets of this witch hunt include some of the countrys finest legal minds )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.1675 Tw (such as law Prof. John Yoo of the University of California at Berkeley, Judge Jay )Tj T* 0.0625 Tw (Bybee of the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, and William J. \(Jim\) Haynes II, former )Tj T* 0.0725 Tw (Pentagon general counsel. Others frequently mentioned include former White House )Tj T* 0.14 Tw (Counsel Harriet Miers, former Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, and former Un-)Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (dersecretary of Defense Douglas Feith. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.175 Tw (Many positions taken by these attorneys, laying the fundamental legal architec-)Tj -1 -1 TD 0.125 Tw (ture of the war on terror, outrage international activists and legal specialists. Nev-)Tj T* 0.1925 Tw (ertheless, in a series of cases beginning with Hamdi v. Rumsfeld \(2004\), the U.S. )Tj T* 0.0925 Tw (Supreme Court has upheld many of their key positions: that the country is engaged )Tj /F6 1 Tf 6.5 0 0 6.5 25 20 Tm 1 g 0 Tw [(VerDate Aug 31 2005 )-1076.9(11:36 Feb 04, 2009)-1076.9(Jkt 000000)-1076.9(PO 00000)-1076.9(Frm 00016)-1076.9(Fmt 6633)-1076.9(Sfmt 6621)-1076.9(H:\\WORK\\CONST\\061808\\42972.000)-1076.9(HJUD1)-1076.9(PsN: 42972)]TJ ET endstream endobj 59 0 obj << /ProcSet [/PDF /Text ] /Font << /F1 4 0 R /F6 9 0 R >> /ExtGState << /GS1 10 0 R >> >> endobj 61 0 obj << /Length 6922 >> stream BT /F1 1 Tf 10 0 0 10 300.44 661 Tm 0 g /GS1 gs 0 Tc 0 Tw (13 )Tj 8 0 0 8 147 643 Tm 0.3 Tw (in an armed conflict; that captured enemy combatants can be detained without )Tj 0 -0.9875 TD 0.115 Tw (criminal trial during these hostilities; and that \(when the time comes\) they may be )Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (punished through the military, rather than the civilian, justice system. )Tj 1 -0.9875 TD 0.2125 Tw (The Court has also required that detainees be given an administrative hearing )Tj -1 -0.9875 TD 0.355 Tw (to challenge their enemy-combatant classification, ruled that Congress \(not the )Tj T* 0.2375 Tw (president alone\) must establish any military commission system, and made clear )Tj T* 0.125 Tw (that it will in the future exercise some level of judicial scrutiny over the treatment )Tj T* 0.0825 Tw (of detainees held at Guantanamo Bayalthough the extent of this role is still being )Tj T* 0.18 Tw (litigated. Overall, the administration has won the critical points necessary to con-)Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (tinue the war against al Qaeda. )Tj 1 -0.9875 TD 0.195 Tw (Most controversial, of course, was the Bush administrations insistence that the )Tj -1 -0.9875 TD 0.08 Tw (Geneva Conventions have limited, if any, application to al Qaeda and its allies \(who )Tj T* 0.0625 Tw (themselves reject the Western concepts behind those treaties\); and the administra-)Tj T* 0.1075 Tw (tions authorization of aggressive interrogation methods, including, in at least three )Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (cases, waterboarding or simulated drowning. )Tj 1 -0.9875 TD 0.0675 Tw (Several legal memoranda, particularly 2002 and 2003 opinions written by Mr. Yoo )Tj -1 -0.9875 TD 0.28 Tw (as deputy assistant attorney general for the Office of Legal Counsel, considered )Tj T* 0.16 Tw (whether such methods can lawfully be used. These memoranda, some of which re-)Tj T* 0.0725 Tw (main classified, explore the limits imposed on the United States by statute, treaties, )Tj T* 0.0975 Tw (and customary international law. The goal clearly was to find a legal means to give )Tj T* 0.0825 Tw (U.S. interrogators the maximum flexibility, while defining the point at which lawful )Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (interrogation ended and unlawful torture began. )Tj 1 -0.9875 TD 0.2175 Tw (I realize that a number of the Administrations legal positions, as they become )Tj -1 -0.9875 TD 0.1325 Tw (publicly known, whether as a result of leaks to the media or the declassification of )Tj T* 0.19 Tw (the relevant legal documents, have attracted considerable criticism. The questions )Tj T* 0.075 Tw (that the Administrations lawyers have sought to address, particularly those dealing )Tj T* 0.15 Tw (with the interrogation of captured enemy combatants, are uncomfortable ones that )Tj T* 0.215 Tw (do not sit well with our 21st Century sensibilities. Many of the legal conclusions )Tj T* 0.195 Tw (reached have struck critics as being excessively harsh. Some have since been wa-)Tj T* 0.0925 Tw (tered down as a result of internal debates and political and public pressure brought )Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (to bear upon the Administration. )Tj 1 -0.9875 TD 0.205 Tw (Though I would not defend each and every aspect of the Administrations post- )Tj -1 -0.9875 TD 0.255 Tw (September 11 wartime policies, I would vigorously defend the overall exercise of )Tj T* 0.2 Tw (asking difficult legal questions and trying to work through them. To me, the fact )Tj T* 0.185 Tw (that this exercise was undertaken so thoroughly attests to the vigor and strength )Tj T* 0.1575 Tw (of our democracy and of the Administrations commitment to the rule of law, even )Tj T* 0.2375 Tw (in the most serious of circumstances. In this regard, I point out that few of our )Tj T* 0.1125 Tw (democratic allies have ever engaged in so probing and searching a legal exegesis in )Tj T* 0.1275 Tw (wartime. I also strongly defend the overarching legal framework chosen by the Ad-)Tj T* 0.1125 Tw (ministration. I believe that it is the critics rejection of this overall legal framework )Tj T* 0.2475 Tw (that underlies most of their criticisms of the Administrations specific legal deci-)Tj 0 -1 TD 0 Tw (sions. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.1275 Tw (Behind this inquiry is a stark fact. In this war on terror, the U.S. must not only )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.09 Tw (attack and defeat enemy forces. It must also anticipate and prevent their deliberate )Tj T* 0.275 Tw (attacks on its civilian populational Qaedas preferred target. International law )Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (gives the civilian population an indisputable right to that protection. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.135 Tw (Lawyers can and do disagree over the administrations conclusions. However, its )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.1525 Tw (now being claimed that the administrations legal advisers can be held responsible )Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (for detainee abuses. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.0775 Tw (This is madness. The lawyers were not in any chain of command, and had no the-)Tj -1 -1 TD 0.0525 Tw (oretical or practical authority to direct the actions of anyone who engaged in abusive )Tj T* 0.1325 Tw (conduct. Those who mouth this argument are engaged in a kind of free association )Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (which, if applied across the board, would make legal counsel infinitely culpable. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.0625 Tw (In truth, the critics fundamental complaint is that the Bush administrations law-)Tj -1 -1 TD 0.205 Tw (yers measured international law against the U.S. Constitution and domestic stat-)Tj T* 0.075 Tw (utes. They interpreted the Geneva Conventions, the U.N. Convention forbidding tor-)Tj T* 0.055 Tw (ture, and customary international law, in ways that were often at odds with the pre-)Tj T* 0.0875 Tw (vailing view of international law professors and various activist groups. In doing so, )Tj T* 0.18 Tw (however, they did no more than assert the right of this nationas is the right of )Tj T* 0.1375 Tw (any sovereign nationto interpret its own international obligations. But that right )Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (is exactly what is denied by many international lawyers inside and outside the acad-)Tj T* 0 Tw (emy. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.0875 Tw (To the extent that international law can be made, it is made through actual state )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.115 Tw (practicewhether in the form of custom, or in the manner states implement treaty )Tj T* 0.1275 Tw (obligations. In the areas relevant to the war on terror, there is precious little state )Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (practice against the U.S. position, but a very great deal of academic orthodoxy. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.125 Tw (For more than 40 years, as part of the post World War II decolonization process, )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.13 Tw (a legal orthodoxy has arisen that supports limiting the ability of nations to use ro-)Tj /F6 1 Tf 6.5 0 0 6.5 25 20 Tm 1 g 0 Tw [(VerDate Aug 31 2005 )-1076.9(11:36 Feb 04, 2009)-1076.9(Jkt 000000)-1076.9(PO 00000)-1076.9(Frm 00017)-1076.9(Fmt 6633)-1076.9(Sfmt 6621)-1076.9(H:\\WORK\\CONST\\061808\\42972.000)-1076.9(HJUD1)-1076.9(PsN: 42972)]TJ ET endstream endobj 62 0 obj << /ProcSet [/PDF /Text ] /Font << /F1 4 0 R /F6 9 0 R >> /ExtGState << /GS1 10 0 R >> >> endobj 64 0 obj << /Length 5047 >> stream BT /F1 1 Tf 10 0 0 10 300.44 661 Tm 0 g /GS1 gs 0 Tc 0 Tw (14 )Tj 8 0 0 8 147 643 Tm 0.275 Tw (bust armed force against irregular or guerilla fighters. It has also attempted to )Tj 0 -1.025 TD 0.23 Tw (privilege such guerillas with the rights traditionally reserved to sovereign states. )Tj T* 0.08 Tw (The U.S. has always been skeptical of these notions, and at critical points has flatly )Tj T* 0.1175 Tw (refused to be bound by these new rules. Most especially, it refused to join the 1977 )Tj T* 0.2275 Tw (Protocol I Additional to the Geneva Conventions, involving the treatment of gue-)Tj T* 0.0725 Tw (rillas, from which many of the norms the U.S. has supposedly violated, are drawn. )Tj 1 -1.025 TD (The Bush administration acted on this skepticisminsisting on the right of a sov-)Tj -1 -1.025 TD 0.1625 Tw (ereign nation to determine for itself what international law means. This is at bot-)Tj T* 0.1725 Tw (tom the sin for which its legal advisers will never be forgiven. To the extent they )Tj T* 0.1375 Tw (can be punishedor at least harassedperhaps their successors in government of-)Tj T* 0.2125 Tw (fice will be deterred from again challenging the prevailing view, even at the cost )Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (of the national interest. )Tj 1 -1.025 TD 0.18 Tw (That is why these administration attorneys have become the particular subjects )Tj -1 -1.025 TD 0.0525 Tw (of attack. )Tj 1 -1.025 TD (I look forward to your questions. )Tj 10 0 0 10 157 511.9999 Tm 0.168 Tw (Mr. N)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 186.2696 511.9999 Tm 0 Tw (ADLER)Tj 10 0 0 10 215.1571 511.9999 Tm 0.168 Tw (. The Chair now recognizes Colonel Wilkerson for 5 )Tj -6.8157 -1.02 TD 0 Tw (minutes. )Tj /F4 1 Tf 9 0 0 9 159.5 481.5999 Tm 0.0422 Tw (TESTIMONY OF COLONEL LAWRENCE B. WILKERSON, USA )Tj -0.2378 -1.2 TD (\(RETIRED\), PROFESSOR, COLLEGE OF WILLIAM AND MARY )Tj /F1 1 Tf 10 0 0 10 157 456.6 Tm 0.482 Tw (Colonel W)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 209.0393 456.6 Tm 0 Tw (ILKERSON)Tj 10 0 0 10 253.1906 456.6 Tm 0.482 Tw (. Thank you, Chairman Nadler, Ranking )Tj -10.6191 -1.02 TD 0.096 Tw (Member Franks, Members of the Subcommittee. Thank you for the )Tj T* 0.212 Tw (opportunity to be here to talk on these important matters today. )Tj 1 -1.02 TD 0.2 Tw (From the outset, let me say I am not a lawyer; I am a soldier )Tj -1 -1.02 TD 0.134 Tw (and a citizen and an academic specializing in national security af-)Tj T* 0.312 Tw (fairs, and particularly in national security decisionmaking since )Tj T* 0.166 Tw (Harry Truman saw fit to sign the 1947 National Security Act. As )Tj T* 0.182 Tw (I was also serving after my 31 years in the military at the State )Tj T* 0.19 Tw (Department, I was a sometime diplomat, I guess, although some-)Tj T* 0.06 Tw (times I think I actually did more diplomacy as a member of the De-)Tj T* 0.052 Tw (partment of Defense than I did at the State Department. )Tj 1 -1.02 TD 0.142 Tw (As I was serving in the latter capacity at the State Department )Tj -1 -1.02 TD 0.056 Tw (as Chief of Staff, in April 2004, Colin Powell came through the door )Tj T* 0.168 Tw (that adjoined our offices, and I knew by the look on his face that )Tj T* 0.142 Tw (he had a serious matter, and I had better just be quiet and listen )Tj T* 0.124 Tw (to him. And he indeed began to speak, and he said something like )Tj T* 0 Tw (this: )Tj 1 -1.02 TD 0.08 Tw (There is going to be a news story about prisoner abuse at a facil-)Tj -1 -1.02 TD 0.33 Tw (ity in Iraq. There will be very damaging photographs, some of )Tj T* 0.084 Tw (which will be published. I have put Will TaftWilliam H. Taft, IV, )Tj T* 0.202 Tw (himself a former Deputy Secretary of Defense, was Powells legal )Tj T* 0.082 Tw (adviser. I put Will Taft on the legal aspects of this, and I want you )Tj T* 0.204 Tw (to work the other aspects, how we got to where we are, who did )Tj 0 -1.01 TD 0.078 Tw (what to whom, a time line, if you will, and any other relevant facts )Tj T* 0.132 Tw (that you come up with. I want you to work very closely with Will, )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (and quickly. )Tj 1 -1.01 TD 0.138 Tw (From that moment until sometime in the early fall, I labored to )Tj -1 -1.01 TD 0.372 Tw (put together a dossier really of classified, sensitive, and open- )Tj T* 0.15 Tw (source information that would help me and the Secretary of State )Tj T* 0.18 Tw (understand how Abu Ghraib happened. Now, let me tell you that )Tj T* 0.1 Tw (this was a particularly important thing, I think, for both Secretary )Tj T* 0.26 Tw (Powell and myself, because, as you know, we both were/are sol-)Tj T* 0.078 Tw (diers. We are both veterans of the conflict in Vietnam. We are both )Tj T* 0.142 Tw (students of military history. We both know how soldiers go astray )Tj T* 0.112 Tw (in the heat of battle with buddies falling all around them, particu-)Tj /F6 1 Tf 6.5 0 0 6.5 25 20 Tm 1 g 0 Tw [(VerDate Aug 31 2005 )-1076.9(11:36 Feb 04, 2009)-1076.9(Jkt 000000)-1076.9(PO 00000)-1076.9(Frm 00018)-1076.9(Fmt 6633)-1076.9(Sfmt 6601)-1076.9(H:\\WORK\\CONST\\061808\\42972.000)-1076.9(HJUD1)-1076.9(PsN: 42972)]TJ ET endstream endobj 65 0 obj << /ProcSet [/PDF /Text ] /Font << /F1 4 0 R /F4 7 0 R /F6 9 0 R >> /ExtGState << /GS1 10 0 R >> >> endobj 67 0 obj << /Length 4445 >> stream BT /F1 1 Tf 10 0 0 10 300.44 661 Tm 0 g /GS1 gs 0 Tc 0 Tw (15 )Tj -15.344 -2 TD 0.2 Tw (larly in wars and conflicts that seem to have no end, no light at )Tj 0 -1.04 TD 0.052 Tw (the end of the tunnel for the soldier or the marine. )Tj 1 -1.04 TD 0.216 Tw (In Vietnam, as a first lieutenant and a captain of infantry, on )Tj -1 -1.04 TD 0.134 Tw (several occasions I had to restrain my soldiers, even one or two of )Tj T* 0.082 Tw (my officers. When higher authorities took such actions as declaring )Tj T* 0.24 Tw (free-fire zonesthat is a zone in which you can engage and kill )Tj T* 0.082 Tw (anythingoftentimes it would be difficult to decide what to do. For )Tj T* 0.236 Tw (example, if you encountered a 12-year-old girl walking down the )Tj T* 0.13 Tw (lane in the jungle, as I did once, you are going to break the rules; )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (you are not going to shoot her. )Tj 1 -1.04 TD 0.09 Tw (In all cases, I always had to set the example. I had to personally )Tj -1 -1.04 TD 0.104 Tw (either break the rules, as I just demonstrated in the free-fire zone, )Tj T* 0.136 Tw (or, more often, follow the rules. I had to follow the rules also that )Tj T* 0.18 Tw (had been ingrained by my parents, by my schools, by my church, )Tj T* 0.162 Tw (and by the United States Army in classes about the Geneva Con-)Tj T* 0.052 Tw (vention and what we call the law of land warfare. )Tj 1 -1.04 TD 0.212 Tw (I had been taught, and I firmly believed when I took the oath )Tj -1 -1.04 TD 0.058 Tw (of an officer, to support and defend the Constitution, that American )Tj T* 0.256 Tw (soldiers were different, and that much of their fighting strength )Tj T* 0.236 Tw (and spirit came from that difference, and that much of that dif-)Tj T* 0.068 Tw (ference was wrapped up in our humaneness and our respect for the )Tj T* 0.156 Tw (rights of all. So, Mr. Chairman, when I saw the first photographs )Tj T* 0.284 Tw (from the prison at Abu Ghraib, I had two immediate reactions. )Tj T* 0.056 Tw (First, I knew such things could happen. Second, I knew such things )Tj T* 0.142 Tw (were wrong, and I knew that they represented a failure of leader-)Tj T* 0.136 Tw (ship. What I didnt know was at what level that leadership failed. )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (So I set out to find the answer, and I think I did. )Tj 1 -1.04 TD 0.094 Tw (Secretary Powell and I also knew what extreme danger to Amer-)Tj -1 -1.04 TD 0.066 Tw (icas real power in the world could be done by such a failure. Amer-)Tj T* 0.176 Tw (ica, as you well know, is an idea as much as it is concrete build-)Tj T* 0.108 Tw (ings, sweeping prairies, stock markets, and land from one ocean to )Tj T* 0.14 Tw (another. Infect that idea, corrode that idea, tarnish that idea, and )Tj T* 0.328 Tw (you dont just diminish perceived power, you diminish our real )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (power. You, in fact, do the terrorists job for them. )Tj 1 -1.04 TD 0.242 Tw (So we knew that this was a serious issue, perhaps one of the )Tj -1 -1.04 TD 0.182 Tw (most serious issues our Nation would face in the opening days of )Tj T* 0.268 Tw (this new century. We hopedas Secretary Powell said over and )Tj T* 0.116 Tw (over again as he went out the C Street entrance with foreign min-)Tj T* 0.092 Tw (ister after foreign minister, and the first questions asked him were )Tj T* 0.316 Tw (not about the foreign ministers country, but about torture and )Tj T* 0.142 Tw (abusewe hoped that, as Secretary Powell said, we would air our )Tj T* 0.122 Tw (dirty laundry, so to speak; the world would see a democracy work; )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (there would be accountability. )Tj 1 -1.04 TD 0.2 Tw (In my prepared statement, which you have and I ask that you )Tj -1 -1.04 TD 0.13 Tw (make a part of the record, I have summarized what I found about )Tj T* 0.1 Tw (that failure of leadership and other items that might be of interest )Tj T* 0.106 Tw (to you, and I would be pleased to answer any questions about that )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (statement. Thank you. )Tj 1 -1.04 TD (Mr. N)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 185.1096 141.8001 Tm 0 Tw (ADLER)Tj 10 0 0 10 213.9971 141.8001 Tm 0.052 Tw (. Thank you very much. )Tj -5.6997 -1.04 TD ([The prepared statement of Colonel Wilkerson follows:] )Tj /F6 1 Tf 6.5 0 0 6.5 25 20 Tm 1 g 0 Tw [(VerDate Aug 31 2005 )-1076.9(11:36 Feb 04, 2009)-1076.9(Jkt 000000)-1076.9(PO 00000)-1076.9(Frm 00019)-1076.9(Fmt 6633)-1076.9(Sfmt 6601)-1076.9(H:\\WORK\\CONST\\061808\\42972.000)-1076.9(HJUD1)-1076.9(PsN: 42972)]TJ ET endstream endobj 68 0 obj << /ProcSet [/PDF /Text ] /Font << /F1 4 0 R /F6 9 0 R >> /ExtGState << /GS1 10 0 R >> >> endobj 70 0 obj << /Length 7390 >> stream BT /F1 1 Tf 10 0 0 10 300.44 661 Tm 0 g /GS1 gs 0 Tc 0 Tw (16 )Tj ET 0 G 0 J 0 j 0.5 w 10 M []0 d 1 i 147 147.8 m 197 147.8 l S BT 5.446 0 0 4.55 154 140.9972 Tm (1)Tj 7 0 0 7 158.168 139.1 Tm 0.2286 Tw (Col. Lawrence B. Wilkerson, USA \(ret.\), is the Visiting Pamela C. Harriman Professor of )Tj -1.5954 -1 TD 0.1143 Tw (Government and Public Policy at the College of William and Mary and Professorial Lecturer in )Tj T* 0.1029 Tw (the University Honors Program at the George Washington University. Col. Wilkerson served as )Tj T* 0.06 Tw (Chief of Staff to Secretary of State Colin Powell from 20022005. In addition, he served 31 years )Tj T* 0.0514 Tw (in the U.S. Army, from 1966 to 1997. )Tj 8 0 0 8 207.16 643 Tm 0 Tw (P)Tj 6.4 0 0 6.0958 212.4959 643 Tm (REPARED)Tj 8 0 0 8 247.4879 643 Tm (S)Tj 6.4 0 0 6.0958 252.5278 643 Tm [(TATEMENT)-412.5(OF)]TJ 8 0 0 8 304.9822 643 Tm (L)Tj 6.4 0 0 6.0958 310.3181 643 Tm (AWRENCE)Tj 8 0 0 8 347.5565 643 Tm 0.0525 Tw (B. W)Tj 6.4 0 0 6.0958 366.0482 643 Tm 0 Tw (ILKERSON)Tj 6.224 0 0 5.2 401.3698 645.1678 Tm (1)Tj 8 0 0 8 404.8304 643 Tm ( )Tj -31.2288 -1.625 TD 0.4525 Tw (Chairman Nadler, Ranking Minority Member Franks, members of the sub-)Tj -1 -1 TD 0.1525 Tw (committee, thank you for giving me the opportunity to testify with regard to what )Tj T* 0.1075 Tw (I know and strongly suspect about administration principals, lawyers, interrogation )Tj T* 0.1375 Tw (rules, and the abuse of detainees by U.S. personnel in the so-called Global War on )Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (Terror \(GWOT\), particularly during the period 20022005. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.1475 Tw (From the outset, let me say that I am not a lawyer nor do I make any pretense )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.175 Tw (to interpret the law as a lawyer might. I am a soldier and a citizen, an academic )Tj T* 0.06 Tw (specializing in national security affairsparticularly national security decision-mak-)Tj T* 0.125 Tw (ing, and a four-year diplomat with the U.S. Department of State, having served on )Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (its policy planning staff and as its chief of staff. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.18 Tw (As I was serving in that latter capacity, in April 2004, Secretary of State Colin )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.1225 Tw (Powell came through the adjoining door to our offices on the 7th floor of the Harry )Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (S Truman building and startled me with words to the effect of: )Tj /F7 1 Tf 1 -1 TD 0.1175 Tw (There is going to be a news story about prisoner abuse at a facility in Iraq. There )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.1775 Tw (will be very damaging photographs, some of which will be published. Ive put Will )Tj T* 0 Tw (Taft )Tj /F1 1 Tf 2.3045 0 TD 0.0825 Tw ([Legal Advisor to the Secretary of State] )Tj /F7 1 Tf 19.4492 0 TD (on the legal aspects of this and I want )Tj -21.7537 -1 TD 0.115 Tw (you to work the other aspectshow we got to where we are, who did what to whom, )Tj T* 0.08 Tw (a timelinea chronologyand any other relevant facts you come up with. Its impor-)Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (tant you do this as quickly as possible and that you work closely with Will. )Tj /F1 1 Tf 1 -1 TD 0.0975 Tw (From that moment to some time in the early fall, I labored to put together a dos-)Tj -1 -1 TD 0.0725 Tw (sier of classified, sensitive, and open source information that would help me and the )Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (Secretary understand how Abu Ghraib happened. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.1575 Tw (Almost immediately, I opened a channel to Admiral Church in the Pentagon be-)Tj -1 -1 TD 0.2375 Tw (cause the Secretary alerted me to an effort by his fellow cabinet official, Donald )Tj T* 0.12 Tw (Rumsfeld, also to get to the bottom of this issue and Admiral Church had been ap-)Tj T* 0.0925 Tw (pointed to head that effort. I must say that after that initial telephone conversation )Tj T* 0.14 Tw (with the Admiral and an agreement to exchange any information that we each de-)Tj T* 0.0975 Tw (veloped, I never heard from him or any of his people again. I did ensure that what-)Tj T* 0.115 Tw (ever relevant documents I found at the State Department were sent to the Defense )Tj T* 0.1325 Tw (Department, and Will Taft did the same. I never received a single document in re-)Tj T* 0.1525 Tw (turn. The Defense Department documents I did manage to get my hands on I had )Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (to scrounge. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.0575 Tw (I also discoveredas I had many other times in my then 34-year career in govern-)Tj -1 -1 TD 0.1325 Tw (mentthat open source material afforded me a more complete picture of what had )Tj T* 0.085 Tw (happened than classified material. I learned that people such as Jane Mayer at )Tj /F7 1 Tf 38.0174 0 TD 0 Tw (The )Tj -38.0174 -1 TD 0.0725 Tw (New Yorker Magazine)Tj /F1 1 Tf 10.2908 0 TD (, Tim Golden at the )Tj /F7 1 Tf 9.6244 0 TD (New York Times)Tj /F1 1 Tf 7.7179 0 TD (, and a host of others had )Tj -27.6331 -1 TD 0.08 Tw (done yeoman service for the American people through some of the best investigative )Tj T* 0.125 Tw (journalism I have encountered. It was through Mr. Goldens research and writings, )Tj T* 0.215 Tw (for example, that I learned that one of the first prison homicides had occurred )Tj T* 0.12 Tw (and its investigation slowed and obscured at numerous intervals and levels of com-)Tj T* 0.1125 Tw (mand of the U.S. Armyin Afghanistan as early as December 2002. That homicide )Tj T* 0.1725 Tw (has been thoroughly examined in an award-winning documentary by Alex Gibney, )Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (entitled Taxi to the Dark Side. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.0925 Tw (Mr. Chairman, let me back up for a moment and tell you why this was a particu-)Tj -1 -1 TD 0.11 Tw (larly important effort for me and I believe for Secretary Powell as well. Clearly, we )Tj T* 0.085 Tw (werewe areboth soldiers. Moreover, we are both veterans of the war in Vietnam )Tj T* 0.12 Tw (and we are both students of military history. We both know how soldiers go astray )Tj T* 0.1875 Tw (in the heat of battle, with buddies being killed and wounded all aroundparticu-)Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (larly in wars that seem to have no end, no light at the end of the tunnel. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.16 Tw (In Vietnam, as a first lieutenant and a captain of Infantry, on several occasions )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.1225 Tw (I had to restrain my soldiers, even one or two of my officers. When higher authori-)Tj T* 0.3025 Tw (ties took such actions as declaring free fire zonesmeaning that anything that )Tj T* 0.1 Tw (moved in that zone could be killedand you came upon a 12-year old girl on a jun-)Tj T* 0.19 Tw (gle path in that zone, it was clear you were not going to follow orders. But some )Tj T* 0.13 Tw (situations were not so black and white and you had to be always on guard against )Tj T* 0.145 Tw (your soldiers slipping over the edge. As their leader, it was incumbent upon me to )Tj T* 0.2075 Tw (set the exampleand that meant sometimes reprimanding or punishing a soldier )Tj T* 0.125 Tw (who broke the rules. In all cases, it meant that I personally followed the rules and )Tj T* 0.1575 Tw (not just by breaking the so-called rules of engagement, as in the designated free )Tj T* 0.1325 Tw (fire zone, but by following the rules that had been ingrained in me by my parents, )Tj /F6 1 Tf 6.5 0 0 6.5 25 20 Tm 1 g 0 Tw [(VerDate Aug 31 2005 )-1076.9(11:36 Feb 04, 2009)-1076.9(Jkt 000000)-1076.9(PO 00000)-1076.9(Frm 00020)-1076.9(Fmt 6633)-1076.9(Sfmt 6621)-1076.9(H:\\WORK\\CONST\\061808\\42972.000)-1076.9(HJUD1)-1076.9(PsN: 42972)]TJ ET endstream endobj 71 0 obj << /ProcSet [/PDF /Text ] /Font << /F1 4 0 R /F6 9 0 R /F7 15 0 R >> /ExtGState << /GS1 10 0 R >> >> endobj 73 0 obj << /Length 6298 >> stream BT /F1 1 Tf 10 0 0 10 300.44 661 Tm 0 g /GS1 gs 0 Tc 0 Tw (17 )Tj 8 0 0 8 147 643 Tm 0.1925 Tw (by my schools, by my church, and by the U.S. Army in classes about the Geneva )Tj 0 -1.025 TD 0.2125 Tw (Conventions and what we called the law of land warfare. I had been taught and )Tj T* 0.0775 Tw (I firmly believed when I took the oath of an officer and swore to support and defend )Tj T* 0.0625 Tw (the Constitution, that American soldiers were different and that much of their fight-)Tj T* 0.1425 Tw (ing strength and spirit came from that difference and that much of that difference )Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (was wrapped up in our humaneness and our respect for the rights of all. )Tj 1 -1.025 TD 0.29 Tw (So, Mr. Chairman, when I saw the first photographs from the prison at Abu )Tj -1 -1.025 TD 0.0625 Tw (Ghraib, I had two immediate reactions. First, I knew such things could happen. Sec-)Tj T* 0.165 Tw (ond, I knew such things were wrong and I knew that leadership had failed. What )Tj T* 0.175 Tw (I did not know, was on what level that leadership had failed. So I set out to find )Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (the answer. )Tj 1 -1.025 TD 0.06 Tw (In the months that followed, right up to the election in November 2004, I collected )Tj -1 -1.025 TD 0.1975 Tw (documents like a pack rat. I had several stacks in the corner of my office almost )Tj T* 0.14 Tw (five-feet tall, and I had classified documents crammed into my safe. I also listened )Tj T* 0.08 Tw (to every one who would talk to me, from throughout the government and elsewhere. )Tj 1 -1.025 TD 0.0775 Tw (I had an open door policy at State. I was in my office by 5:30 or 6AM every morn-)Tj -1 -1.025 TD 0.0925 Tw (ing and rarely left before 8 or 9PM in the evening. I was there on weekends. Under )Tj T* 0.12 Tw (secretaries, assistant secretaries, ambassadors, office directors, members of the pol-)Tj 0 -1.0125 TD 0.2375 Tw (icy planning staff, foreign service officers, civil service officers, military men and )Tj T* 0.19 Tw (women, Iraqis, Afghans, and a host of others flocked to my office to tell me their )Tj T* 0.095 Tw (complaints or give me their counsel. I had built up quite an extensive network. The )Tj T* 0.1775 Tw (Secretary had asked me to guard his rear and his flanks and I knew that such a )Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (network was one of the best ways to do that. )Tj 1 -1.0125 TD 0.18 Tw (As you may surmise, Mr. Chairman, people were attracted to my office also be-)Tj -1 -1.0125 TD 0.1425 Tw (cause of their knowledge that when they spoke with me, their concerns had a rea-)Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (sonable chance of reaching the Secretary. )Tj 1 -1.0125 TD 0.265 Tw (Moreover, when I left government in January 2005, I became immediately in-)Tj -1 -1.0125 TD 0.2125 Tw (volved in lecturing to the nations war colleges and listening to the military men )Tj T* 0.1625 Tw (and women at those institutions, and to the interagency personnel who were scat-)Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (tered amongst them. )Tj 1 -1.0125 TD 0.12 Tw (I also continued my extensive research. I joined an effort of some 2530 flag offi-)Tj -1 -1.0125 TD 0.105 Tw (cers and similar rank civilians who were linked with the Human Rights First orga-)Tj T* 0.2025 Tw (nization. On 78 December 2005, at the Ritz Carlton in Crystal City, we met for )Tj T* 0.0825 Tw (the first time and Ill never forget what one flag officer said to me. He said he could )Tj T* 0.1375 Tw (not believe that in his lifetimeno, he corrected himself, in his countrys history )Tj T* 0.08 Tw (that anyone would be discussing the topic we were to discuss, torture and abuse en-)Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (couraged at the highest levels of the U.S. Government. )Tj 1 -1.0125 TD 0.2175 Tw (We talked about the so-called Bybee memo. We were astonished that what ap-)Tj -1 -1.0125 TD 0.0825 Tw (peared to be a legalistic argument not unlike the debate as to how many angels can )Tj T* 0.12 Tw (sit on the head of a pin, pertained to one of the most serious matters imaginable )Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (torture of another human being. )Tj 1 -1.0125 TD 0.135 Tw (The Bybee memo had been furnished in a four-inch binder distributed to each of )Tj -1 -1.0125 TD 0.14 Tw (us at that first meeting. As I flipped through my binder to find the documents en-)Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (closed, I was stunned. )Tj 1 -1.0125 TD (In that binder were: )Tj 1 -1.2625 TD 0.1875 Tw [(1\))-555(Memorandum for Alberto R. Gonzales, Counsel to the President, from: Jay )]TJ 1.445 -1.0125 TD 0.0725 Tw (S. Bybee, Assistant Attorney General, )Tj /F7 1 Tf 18.1982 0 TD (Re: Legal Standards Applicable Under )Tj -18.1982 -1.0125 TD 0.0525 Tw (18 U.S.C. 23402340A )Tj /F1 1 Tf 10.7933 0 TD (\(Aug 1, 2002\); )Tj -12.2383 -1.2625 TD 0.1325 Tw [(2\))-555(Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld Memo Re: Guantanamo Interrogation Policy, )]TJ 1.445 -1.0125 TD 0.0525 Tw (Dec 2, 2002; )Tj -1.445 -1.2625 TD 0.1225 Tw [(3\))-555(Declaration of Vice Admiral Lowell E. Jacoby, USN, Director of the Defense )]TJ 1.445 -1.0125 TD 0.0525 Tw (Intelligence Agency, Jan 9, 2003 \(Rumsfeld vs. Padilla J.A. 5563\); )Tj -1.445 -1.2625 TD 0.1325 Tw [(4\))-555(Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld Memo Re: Guantanamo Interrogation Policy, )]TJ 1.445 -1.0125 TD 0.0525 Tw (April 16, 2003; )Tj -1.445 -1.2625 TD 0.1875 Tw [(5\))-555(LTG Ricardo Sanchez Memo Re: CJTF-7 Interrogation and Counter-Resist-)]TJ 1.445 -1.0125 TD 0.0525 Tw (ance Policy, Sept 14, 2003; )Tj -1.445 -1.2625 TD 0.285 Tw [(6\))-555(Guantanamo Bay: Approved Interrogation Techniquesfrom White House )]TJ 1.445 -1.0125 TD 0.0525 Tw (briefing, June 22, 2004; )Tj -1.445 -1.2625 TD 0.275 Tw [(7\))-555(Memorandum for Deputy Attorney General James B. Coney, from Daniel )]TJ 1.445 -1.0125 TD 0.2475 Tw (Levin, Acting Assistant Attorney General, Re: Legal Standards Applicable )Tj T* 0.2275 Tw (Under U.S.C. 18 23402340A \(Dec 30, 2004\) [superseded the Aug 1, 2002 )Tj T* 0 Tw (memo]; )Tj -1.445 -1.2625 TD 0.0525 Tw [(8\))-555(Pentagon Detention Policy, Nov 3, 2005. )]TJ -1 -1.5125 TD (There was much more as well; the four-inch binder was in fact bulging. )Tj /F6 1 Tf 6.5 0 0 6.5 25 20 Tm 1 g 0 Tw [(VerDate Aug 31 2005 )-1076.9(11:36 Feb 04, 2009)-1076.9(Jkt 000000)-1076.9(PO 00000)-1076.9(Frm 00021)-1076.9(Fmt 6633)-1076.9(Sfmt 6621)-1076.9(H:\\WORK\\CONST\\061808\\42972.000)-1076.9(HJUD1)-1076.9(PsN: 42972)]TJ ET endstream endobj 74 0 obj << /ProcSet [/PDF /Text ] /Font << /F1 4 0 R /F6 9 0 R /F7 15 0 R >> /ExtGState << /GS1 10 0 R >> >> endobj 77 0 obj << /Length 7192 >> stream BT /F1 1 Tf 10 0 0 10 300.44 661 Tm 0 g /GS1 gs 0 Tc 0 Tw (18 )Tj ET 0 G 0 J 0 j 0.5 w 10 M []0 d 1 i 147 140.8 m 197 140.8 l S BT 5.446 0 0 4.55 154 133.9972 Tm (2)Tj 7 0 0 7 158.168 132.1 Tm 0.1886 Tw (Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escapereferring to the type of training afforded in all )Tj -1.5954 -1 TD 0.0971 Tw (the Armed Services and in special schools such as Ranger School in the US Army aimed at giv-)Tj T* 0.1686 Tw (ing the trainee a very brief idea and feeling of what it is like to be a prisoner of war, among )Tj T* 0.0514 Tw (other things. )Tj 8 0 0 8 155 643 Tm 0.185 Tw (The one memorandum I did not find, that I had had when I was at State, was )Tj -1 -0.9875 TD 0.1 Tw (the Presidents memorandum of February 7, 2002, Humane Treatment of al Qaeda )Tj T* 0.1025 Tw (and Taliban Detainees. I would get that memo in my hands once again a few days )Tj T* 0.1275 Tw (later from one of the producers of )Tj /F7 1 Tf 16.5393 0 TD (CNNs Sixty Minutes)Tj /F1 1 Tf 9.9019 0 TD (, who faxed it to me. It had )Tj -26.4411 -0.9875 TD 0.0525 Tw (been declassified of course. )Tj 1 -0.9875 TD 0.1325 Tw (This meeting in Crystal City coincided with Senator McCains efforts in the Sen-)Tj -1 -0.9875 TD 0.205 Tw (ate to secure passage of the Detainee Treatment Act and so we fed our thoughts )Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (into the Senators staff and his staff fed their thoughts into our meeting. )Tj 1 -0.9875 TD 0.2675 Tw (After that meeting, I did not relax my efforts to discover more. I met Joseph )Tj -1 -0.9875 TD 0.2325 Tw (Margulies who had written the book, )Tj /F7 1 Tf 18.7307 0 TD 0 Tw (Guanta)Tj 3.0465 0.072 TD ()Tj 0.4535 -0.072 TD 0.2325 Tw (namo and the Abuse of Presidential )Tj -22.2307 -0.9875 TD 0 Tw (Power)Tj /F1 1 Tf 2.833 0 TD 0.155 Tw (, and I marveled at his ability to piece together essentially the same conclu-)Tj -2.833 -0.9875 TD 0.0975 Tw (sions that I had come to preliminarily as I left the State Department in early 2005. )Tj T* 0.18 Tw (Judging from his footnotes, he, too, had apparently been able to get his hands on )Tj T* 0.1525 Tw (many documents. The one additional piece of the puzzle I gained from reading his )Tj T* 0.2025 Tw (book and talking with him was about the SERE)Tj 6.224 0 0 5.2 337.6213 534.5678 Tm 0 Tw (2)Tj 8 0 0 8 344.922 532.4 Tm 0.2025 Tw (techniques that formed a basis )Tj -24.7402 -0.9875 TD 0.0825 Tw (for some of the harsh interrogation methods that were used in Afghanistan, in Iraq, )Tj T* 0.1225 Tw (and at Guanta)Tj 6.5434 0.076 TD 0 Tw ()Tj 0.4445 -0.076 TD 0.1225 Tw (namo Bay. I had harbored some suspicions to that effect but did not )Tj -6.9879 -0.9875 TD 0.1025 Tw (have access to some of the documents and research that Margulies did and, indeed, )Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (that he was to expand. )Tj 1 -0.9875 TD 0.1825 Tw (As a professor of government and public policy on two campuses, I made a Na-)Tj -1 -0.9875 TD 0.09 Tw (tional Security Council \(NSC\) Exercise a part of my curriculum. The decision before )Tj T* 0.07 Tw (the mock NSC was How to manage and treat those personnel detained in the Glob-)Tj T* 0.33 Tw (al War on Terror. Law students from the George Washington University Law )Tj T* 0.095 Tw (School and from the College of William and Mary School of Law acted in the capac-)Tj T* 0.0975 Tw (ities of Attorney General, counselors to the President and Vice President, Legal Ad-)Tj T* 0.155 Tw (visor to the Secretary of State, and OSD General Counsel. From these exercises, I )Tj T* 0.06 Tw (gained additional insights into the receptivity of the American people to harsh inter-)Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (rogation, as well as into the human dynamics of such decision-making. )Tj 1 -0.9875 TD 0.19 Tw (One of the thoughts that resonated with the students was expressed eloquently )Tj -1 -0.9875 TD 0.06 Tw (by Senator John McCain when he remarked that, when questions arise about break-)Tj T* 0.0925 Tw (ing the rules, it isnt about the enemy, its about us. Whether our enemy is German )Tj T* (SS troops in the snows of the Battle of the Bulge in 194445, north Korean soldiers )Tj T* 0.14 Tw (at the Chosin Reservoir, or north Vietnamese troops in the Parrots Beak, it is not )Tj T* 0.1675 Tw (about how they treat us in war. It is about how we treat them. It is about us, as )Tj T* 0 Tw (Americans. )Tj 1 -0.9875 TD 0.17 Tw (When you break the rules, you damage Americas power. You not only put your )Tj -1 -0.9875 TD 0.125 Tw (own potential prisoners of war in jeopardy, you actually damage American prestige )Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (and that diminishes our real power in the world. )Tj 1 -0.9875 TD 0.165 Tw (A month or so after some of the Abu Ghraib photos had actually been revealed, )Tj -1 -0.9875 TD 0.175 Tw (the door to my office at the State Department was slightly open and I could hear )Tj T* 0.2 Tw (Secretary Powell on the telephone with Secretary Rumsfeld. His voice was louder )Tj T* 0.15 Tw (than usual. He was remonstrating with his fellow cabinet member. He was asking )Tj T* 0.1175 Tw (him if he understood what GITMO was doing to Americas reputation in the world, )Tj T* 0.205 Tw (to our standing in the eyes of our friends and allies. Ive no idea what Secretary )Tj T* 0.21 Tw (Rumsfelds response was but I know I had rarely heard Powell raise his voice to )Tj T* 0.1975 Tw (that degree. Of course, the photos from Abu Ghraib had served to confirm in the )Tj 0 -1 TD 0.135 Tw (eyes of many of our friends and allies, as well as our enemies, that what they had )Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (suspected all along about the Cuban prison, was true. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.13 Tw (As I said before, Powell is a soldier. Soldiers hurt when soldiers break the rules. )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.0975 Tw (But what I discovered in my efforts for Powell and confirmed even more in my sub-)Tj T* 0.1025 Tw (sequent efforts on my own, was that soldiers were not entirely responsible for what )Tj T* 0.19 Tw (happened to Americas power and prestige in the world because soldiers were not )Tj T* 0.205 Tw (alone responsible for what happened at GITMO, at Bagram and elsewhere in Af-)Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (ghanistan, and at Abu Ghraib and elsewhere in Iraq. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.1825 Tw (Mr. Chairman, I earlier posed the question: At what level did American leader-)Tj -1 -1 TD 0.0525 Tw (ship fail? )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.2075 Tw (I believe it failed at the highest levels of the Pentagon, in the Vice Presidents )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.1725 Tw (office, and perhaps even in the Oval Office, though the Memorandum of February )Tj T* 0.0875 Tw (7, 2002, which I cited earlier, tends to make me think the President may have been )Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (ignorant of the worst parts of the failure. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.155 Tw (As I compiled my dossier for Secretary Powell, as I did further research, and as )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.1025 Tw (my views grew firmer and firmer, I needed frequently to reread that memo. I need-)Tj T* 0.21 Tw (ed to balance, in my own mind, the overwhelming evidence that my own govern-)Tj /F6 1 Tf 6.5 0 0 6.5 25 20 Tm 1 g 0 Tw [(VerDate Aug 31 2005 )-1076.9(11:36 Feb 04, 2009)-1076.9(Jkt 000000)-1076.9(PO 00000)-1076.9(Frm 00022)-1076.9(Fmt 6633)-1076.9(Sfmt 6621)-1076.9(H:\\WORK\\CONST\\061808\\42972.000)-1076.9(HJUD1)-1076.9(PsN: 42972)]TJ ET endstream endobj 78 0 obj << /ProcSet [/PDF /Text ] /Font << /F1 4 0 R /F6 9 0 R /F7 15 0 R >> /ExtGState << /GS1 10 0 R >> >> endobj 80 0 obj << /Length 7086 >> stream BT /F1 1 Tf 10 0 0 10 300.44 661 Tm 0 g /GS1 gs 0 Tc 0 Tw (19 )Tj 8 0 0 8 147 643 Tm 0.15 Tw (ment had sanctioned abuse and torture which, at its worst, had led to the murder )Tj 0 -0.9875 TD 0.1525 Tw (of 25 detainees in a total of at least a 100 detainee deaths. Death, Mr. Chairman, )Tj T* 0.185 Tw (seems to me to be the ultimate torture, indisputable and final. We had murdered )Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (25 or more people in detention; that was the clear low point of the evidence. )Tj 1 -0.9875 TD 0.06 Tw (The Presidents February 2002 memo seemed to me, a student of national security )Tj -1 -0.9875 TD 0.1125 Tw (decision-making from the passage of the 1947 National Security Act to the present, )Tj T* 0.2275 Tw (to constitute the same sort of compromise that I had discovered so often in that )Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (more than a half century of decision-making. )Tj 1 -0.9875 TD 0.1425 Tw (President Bush, it seemed to me, had tried to walk down the middle of the road )Tj -1 -0.9875 TD 0.08 Tw (when confronted with the challenge of reconciling the needs of our security with the )Tj T* 0.105 Tw (needs of our democratic republiche had tried to safeguard our soul without losing )Tj T* 0.0725 Tw (our security, as diplomatic historian Michael Hogan phrases it. The Presidents Feb-)Tj T* 0.2075 Tw (ruary 2002 memo expressed such a compromisethe same compromise that from )Tj T* 0.2125 Tw (time to time presidents such as Eisenhower, Johnson, Nixon, Reagan, and others )Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (had had to make also. )Tj 1 -0.9875 TD 0.0775 Tw (But it seemed to me that beneath the compromise that President George W. Bush )Tj -1 -0.9875 TD 0.2075 Tw (had made in his February 2002 memo, others had moved out smartly to deviate. )Tj 1 -0.9875 TD 0.135 Tw (They had a model to match that deviation against, in my viewthough I cannot )Tj -1 -0.9875 TD 0.0525 Tw (substantiate this. )Tj 1 -0.9875 TD 0.165 Tw (After all my research, I believe the President did more than sign that February )Tj -1 -0.9875 TD 0.1375 Tw (2002 memo. I believe that like several presidents before him during the Cold War, )Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (he signed a highly-classified )Tj /F7 1 Tf 13.5258 0 TD 0 Tw (Finding. )Tj /F1 1 Tf -12.5258 -0.9875 TD 0.1775 Tw (That Finding directed, most likely, the head of the CIA, Mr. Tenet, to establish )Tj -1 -0.9875 TD 0.1875 Tw (a very small, highly-qualified group of interrogators at the CIA who would, if the )Tj T* 0.19 Tw (need arose, interrogate high value targets. They would use a number of methods, )Tj T* 0.3775 Tw (including waterboardingwhich has been considered torture since at least the )Tj T* 0.095 Tw (Spanish Inquisitionto interrogate these high value targets, when and if the Presi-)Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (dent approved. )Tj 1 -0.9875 TD 0.0925 Tw (I emphasize that this was likely a very highly-compartmented program with min-)Tj -1 -0.9875 TD 0.17 Tw (imum knowledge of it in the bureaucracy. I believe that this program is what the )Tj T* 0.0925 Tw (recent revelations by ABC TVs investigative team were about, though ABC TV had )Tj T* 0.1975 Tw (no way of knowing the particulars. You will recall that their revelations included )Tj T* 0.21 Tw (transcripts, apparently, of principals meetings wherein the participants discussed )Tj T* 0.055 Tw (harsh interrogation methods, participants including Dr. Rice, then National Security )Tj T* 0.19 Tw (Advisor, Attorney General Ashcroft, and Secretaries Powell and Rumsfeld and, by )Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (the Presidents own subsequent statement, the President himself. )Tj 1 -0.9875 TD 0.165 Tw (I believe this is clear evidence that my speculation about a presidential Finding )Tj -1 -0.9875 TD 0.0525 Tw (is on the mark. )Tj 1 -0.9875 TD 0.145 Tw (But that would have been a highly-controlled, extremely selective program, how-)Tj -1 -0.9875 TD 0.165 Tw (ever some might find it reprehensible. How did what was done there, in that pro-)Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (gram, migrate out to the Armed Forces and become so widespread? )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.12 Tw (After the tragic events of September 11, 2001, Secretary Rumsfeld and certain of )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.0775 Tw (his subordinates wanted the war that was coming to be a broad, global one, not just )Tj T* 0.13 Tw (against al-Qaida. Read Mr. Feiths book, )Tj /F7 1 Tf 19.9337 0 TD (War and Decision)Tj /F1 1 Tf 8.4429 0 TD (, and he will tell you in )Tj -28.3766 -1 TD 0.155 Tw (that book how seriously he and Mr. Rumsfeld wanted to broaden the war. He will )Tj T* 0.1925 Tw (also tell you that he and Mr. Rumsfeld believed the fight was not simply against )Tj T* 0.205 Tw (al-Qaida but against every terrorist who might raise his head, from the criminal )Tj T* 0.0675 Tw (thugs in the Philippines called )Tj /F7 1 Tf 14.7283 0 TD (Abu Sayyaf)Tj /F1 1 Tf 5.3644 0 TD (, to the al Qaida derivatives in Southeast )Tj -20.0927 -1 TD 0.12 Tw (Asia known as )Tj /F7 1 Tf 7.3619 0 TD (Jemaah Islamiyah)Tj /F1 1 Tf 8.7659 0 TD (. From the tone in the book, one gets the impres-)Tj -16.1278 -1 TD 0.21 Tw (sion that Mr. Feith would have dearly loved to throw )Tj /F7 1 Tf 26.8066 0 TD 0 Tw (Hamas )Tj /F1 1 Tf 3.8019 0 TD (and )Tj /F7 1 Tf 2.229 0 TD 0.21 Tw (Hezbollah into )Tj -32.8375 -1 TD 0.0525 Tw (the mix as well. )Tj /F1 1 Tf 1 -1 TD 0.0875 Tw (To get into the fight all across the globe meant first and foremost disbursing Spe-)Tj -1 -1 TD 0.2975 Tw (cial Operations Forces \(SOF\) as widely as possible in areas of medium to high )Tj T* 0.18 Tw (threat. It also meantand this was utterly crucial)Tj /F7 1 Tf 25.5776 0 TD (actionable intelligence)Tj /F1 1 Tf 10.3978 0 TD (. Other-)Tj -35.9755 -1 TD 0.075 Tw (wise those SOF would be spinning their wheels, unable to take direct action against )Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (or capture any terrorists at all. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.145 Tw (As a military man for 31 years, I know how most people in the Defense Depart-)Tj -1 -1 TD 0.215 Tw (ment viewed the CIA. I was special assistant to Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of )Tj T* 0.0975 Tw (Staff, General Colin Powell, in the first Gulf War. I know how he and General Nor-)Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (man Schwarzkopf railed at the CIA. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.07 Tw (I have to believe that Secretary Rumsfeld felt similarly. All the evidence indicated )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.12 Tw (he did. In March 2003, he made one of his closest subordinates, Stephen Cambone, )Tj T* 0.09 Tw (the first Under Secretary of Defense for Intelligenceclearly indicating that he was )Tj T* 0.095 Tw (going to take the some 80% of the approximately $40B intelligence budget that was )Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (his and use it to his purpose. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.0925 Tw (He also set up a sort of intelligence red team in the office of his Undersecretary )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.135 Tw (for Policy, Mr. Feith. This team vetted the intelligence communitys raw materials, )Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (analysis and findings. )Tj /F6 1 Tf 6.5 0 0 6.5 25 20 Tm 1 g 0 Tw [(VerDate Aug 31 2005 )-1076.9(11:36 Feb 04, 2009)-1076.9(Jkt 000000)-1076.9(PO 00000)-1076.9(Frm 00023)-1076.9(Fmt 6633)-1076.9(Sfmt 6621)-1076.9(H:\\WORK\\CONST\\061808\\42972.000)-1076.9(HJUD1)-1076.9(PsN: 42972)]TJ ET endstream endobj 81 0 obj << /ProcSet [/PDF /Text ] /Font << /F1 4 0 R /F6 9 0 R /F7 15 0 R >> /ExtGState << /GS1 10 0 R >> >> endobj 83 0 obj << /Length 7012 >> stream BT /F1 1 Tf 10 0 0 10 300.44 661 Tm 0 g /GS1 gs 0 Tc 0 Tw (20 )Tj 8 0 0 8 155 643 Tm 0.135 Tw (So, twin pressures were thus unleashed almost immediately in early 2002. First, )Tj -1 -0.9875 TD 0.19 Tw (the need for actionable intelligence was uppermost and urgent and this need was )Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (conveyed to the field down the chain of command. Second, echoing the President and )Tj T* 0.1 Tw (the Vice Presidents own words, the word went out that the gloves were off, and we )Tj T* 0.1275 Tw (were going to have to work sort of the dark side. That same day at Camp David, )Tj T* 0.1 Tw (September 16, 2001, when the Vice President referred to the dark side, he also told )Tj T* 0.195 Tw (Tim Russert: )Tj 7.0949 0 TD [(.)-555(.)-555(.)-555(its going to be vital for us to use any means at our disposal, )]TJ -7.0949 -0.9875 TD 0.0525 Tw (basically, to achieve our objective. )Tj 1 -0.9875 TD 0.15 Tw (These words reminded me of what Undersecretary of Defense Robert Lovett had )Tj -1 -0.9875 TD 0.095 Tw (argued as the Cold War was heating up, after the Soviets had developed and tested )Tj T* 0.225 Tw (a nuclear weapon in 1949. Lovett argued in 1950 that the nation was in a war )Tj T* 0.2125 Tw (worse than any we have ever experienced and that this meant doing away with )Tj T* 0.2675 Tw (the sharp line between democratic principles and immoral actions)Tj 33.0315 0 TD [(.)-555(.)-555(.)-555(. Lovett )]TJ -33.0315 -0.9875 TD 0.32 Tw (considered such distinctions as a dangerous and unnecessary handicap in the )Tj T* 0.2025 Tw (struggle with communism. He said he wanted to fight the Soviets with no holds )Tj T* 0 Tw (barred)Tj 3.074 0 TD 0.1225 Tw [(.)-555(.)-555(.)-555(.. In my view, it was fortunate for the nation that Truman did not fol-)]TJ -3.074 -0.9875 TD 0.0525 Tw (low Lovetts advice. )Tj 1 -0.9875 TD 0.175 Tw (But many in the Pentagon, and eventually the armed forces, did seem to follow )Tj -1 -0.9875 TD 0.135 Tw (the advice, however implicit, of Lovetts reincarnation in 2001, Vice President Che-)Tj T* 0 Tw (ney. )Tj 1 -0.9875 TD 0.1575 Tw (In short, the Pentagon needed intelligence; people should go out and get it. And )Tj -1 -0.9875 TD 0.16 Tw (the usual rules were not going to apply; new rules would be forthcoming. Even as )Tj T* 0.1325 Tw (a result of my early investigations at the State Department, this overriding reality )Tj T* 0.2125 Tw (was clear. But somewhere in that early part of 2002, some of the principals also )Tj T* 0.1575 Tw (began to worry about legalities. It was likely earlier even but I could find nothing )Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (in late 2001. Perhaps someday others will. )Tj 1 -0.9875 TD 0.0625 Tw (These concerns derived from knowledge of the Church Committee and the damage )Tj -1 -0.9875 TD 0.175 Tw (it had done with regard to the clandestine service in particular but to the CIA in )Tj T* 0.0775 Tw (general, as well as from a sure knowledge among the selected intelligence personnel )Tj T* 0.0875 Tw (and their leaders that they were being asked to depart from the realm of what they )Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (considered legal activities. )Tj 1 -0.9875 TD 0.19 Tw (This concern, I believe, generated the legal discussions that would began to de-)Tj -1 -0.9875 TD 0.1175 Tw (velop among David Addington in OVP, John Yoo and Jay Bybee at Justice, Alberto )Tj T* 0.2225 Tw (Gonzales in the White House and, eventually, expand to include the inputs from )Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (USD \(P\) Douglas Feith and OSD General Counsel Jim Haynes. )Tj 1 -0.9875 TD 0.0875 Tw (In effect, the most direct way for the Defense Department to create a legal screen )Tj -1 -0.9875 TD 0.105 Tw (for its own activities was to adapt the work that was in progress for the legal opin-)Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (ions backing the presidential finding to the needs of the DOD. )Tj 1 -0.9875 TD 0.1825 Tw (But lets backtrack for a moment and shed more light on what in my view had )Tj -1 -0.9875 TD 0.0525 Tw (transpired to this point. )Tj 1 -0.9875 TD 0.1225 Tw (Its my strong view that the legal proceedings were led by David Addington, who )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.33 Tw (turned to Jay Bybee and John Yoo at the Department of Justice, and Alberto )Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (Gonzales in the White House, then counselor to the President. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.1625 Tw (These were the lawyers who set the legal background against which other-than- )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.08 Tw (standard interrogation methods would be explained away as in accord with the Ge-)Tj T* 0.14 Tw (neva Conventions, not constituting torture, fully within the Article II powers of )Tj T* 0.1025 Tw (the Commander-in Chief, and so forth. At Defense, Jim Haynes and Douglas Feith )Tj T* 0.1125 Tw (would adapt these views to their needs at the Pentagon. Indeed, in the recent book )Tj /F7 1 Tf T* 0.0675 Tw (Torture Team )Tj /F1 1 Tf 6.7629 0 TD (by English barrister Philippe Sands, in extended interviews Mr. Feith )Tj -6.7629 -1 TD 0.0725 Tw (appears to express no small degree of pride in having helped make the Geneva Con-)Tj T* 0.1675 Tw (ventions adaptable to the needs of the new interrogation regime. In my view, this )Tj T* 0.0825 Tw (was done largely through artifice not unlike the angels sitting on the pinhead. Such )Tj T* 0.16 Tw (artifice may appeal to certain lawyers but I assure you soldiers have no use for it )Tj T* 0.115 Tw (for they know how dangerous such arguments are when put to the hard act of exe-)Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (cution in the field. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.185 Tw (Meanwhile, the operational end of this affair was orchestrated by the Secretary )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.225 Tw (of Defense and his subordinates, Haynes, Feith, Stephen Cambone and Im quite )Tj T* 0.205 Tw (certain others. Certain of these individuals, including Addington, even visited the )Tj T* 0.06 Tw (prison at Guanta)Tj 7.5844 0.076 TD 0 Tw ()Tj 0.4445 -0.076 TD 0.06 Tw (namo Bay in September 2002 to get a better grip on what was hap-)Tj -8.0289 -1 TD 0.1225 Tw (pening to acquire actionable intelligence and to inform their own views about what )Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (was possible. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.165 Tw (There has been an argument that U.S. Southern Command queried the Defense )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.1475 Tw (Department with respect to interrogation procedures for GITMO, and thus the im-)Tj T* 0.0975 Tw (petus for the new procedures came from the field. There is a paper trail that seems )Tj T* 0.12 Tw (to have been laid down to support that. What I found, however, was that Southern )Tj T* 0.17 Tw (Commands query was expected \(set up perhaps?\) and that OSD General Counsel, )Tj T* 0.1125 Tw (in league with the others in the legal group, had already worked up what the legal )Tj T* 0.185 Tw (position was going to be. In short, there were people in DOD at the highest level )Tj /F6 1 Tf 6.5 0 0 6.5 25 20 Tm 1 g 0 Tw [(VerDate Aug 31 2005 )-1076.9(11:36 Feb 04, 2009)-1076.9(Jkt 000000)-1076.9(PO 00000)-1076.9(Frm 00024)-1076.9(Fmt 6633)-1076.9(Sfmt 6621)-1076.9(H:\\WORK\\CONST\\061808\\42972.000)-1076.9(HJUD1)-1076.9(PsN: 42972)]TJ ET endstream endobj 84 0 obj << /ProcSet [/PDF /Text ] /Font << /F1 4 0 R /F6 9 0 R /F7 15 0 R >> /ExtGState << /GS1 10 0 R >> >> endobj 86 0 obj << /Length 6817 >> stream BT /F1 1 Tf 10 0 0 10 300.44 661 Tm 0 g /GS1 gs 0 Tc 0 Tw (21 )Tj 8 0 0 8 147 643 Tm 0.2175 Tw (who knew what they wanted: actionable intelligence. They also knew, or thought )Tj 0 -0.9875 TD 0.255 Tw (they knew, that the only way they were going to get it from battle-hardened al )Tj T* 0.2225 Tw (Qaida operatives was to use harsh interrogation methods. And thats the bottom )Tj T* 0 Tw (line. )Tj 1 -0.9875 TD 0.09 Tw (Depressingly to me, these men also seemed to have the cavalier disregard for any )Tj -1 -0.9875 TD 0.08 Tw (innocents who might be caught up in this process that one often finds in men safely )Tj T* 0.2125 Tw (to the rear of the real action. Soldiers call such men REMFs. I wont elaborate )Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (on that acronym. )Tj 1 -0.9875 TD 0.16 Tw (Mr. Chairman, I have given much thought to the idea of malice aforethought in )Tj -1 -0.9875 TD 0.1225 Tw (these matters. That is, did any of these men clearly realize what they were setting )Tj T* 0.135 Tw (in motion? Did they realize for example that a significant proportion of the detain-)Tj T* 0.19 Tw (ees in all their prisons were innocent of any wrongdoing, they were simply swept )Tj T* 0.2075 Tw (up in military operations and, due to a debilitating shortage of troops, vetting in )Tj T* 0.15 Tw (the field was poorly done? This was particularly true in Afghanistan and, later, in )Tj T* 0.11 Tw (Iraq. Did they realize that hooding and shackling and keeping such people in isola-)Tj T* 0.1725 Tw (tion was cruel and unusual punishment? Did they realize that what they had put )Tj T* 0.125 Tw (in motion would spread and grow? That units from Afghanistan would bring meth-)Tj T* 0.0775 Tw (ods to Iraq? That methods used at GITMO would migrate to Iraq via Major General )Tj T* 0.0625 Tw (Miller? That in Iraq the shortage of troops would be an enormous deficiency, compli-)Tj T* 0.1525 Tw (cating almost every activity including prisoner control? That at the end of the day )Tj T* 0.2525 Tw (their twin down-flowing pressures of getting intelligence and, if necessary, using )Tj T* 0.0625 Tw (other means, would create a disaster in the Armed Forcesso much so that a U.S. )Tj T* 0.125 Tw (Senator would have to bring legislation to the floor of the Senate to get the Armed )Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (Forces back where they should be, adhering to the established rules of warfare? )Tj 1 -0.9875 TD 0.15 Tw (In that regard, I have read and reread Secretary Rumsfelds memo of November )Tj -1 -0.9875 TD 0.22 Tw (27, 2002 \(1:00 PM\), Counter-Resistance Techniques. This is the memo with the )Tj T* 0.065 Tw (now infamous hand-written postscript: However, I stand for 810 hours a day. Why )Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (is standing limited to four hours? D. R. )Tj 1 -0.9875 TD 0.185 Tw (I believe that more than any other single document this one demonstrates both )Tj -1 -0.9875 TD 0.2 Tw (the arrogance and the ignoranceand I use that latter term with great precision )Tj T* 0.0575 Tw (and not in a pejorative senseof the signer. What is exhibited here is the sheer lack )Tj T* 0.0675 Tw (of understanding of a man who has never been in what I call the crucible of combat, )Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (the fiery furnace that soldiers call home from time to time, however reluctantly. And )Tj T* 0.07 Tw (who works beneath a Vice President, a long-time colleague, who believes like Robert )Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (Lovett that any evil is justified in the name of security. )Tj 1 -0.9875 TD 0.175 Tw (Moreover, this was a manand these were menwho could not bring the chal-)Tj -1 -0.9875 TD 0.115 Tw (lenge he thought he was confronting to the legislative branch and ask for relief. To )Tj T* 0.135 Tw (come to the peoples representatives, and through them to the people, was beneath )Tj T* (this group. They would not deign to ask the legislature to change the rules for the )Tj T* 0.2175 Tw (Armed Forcesa legislature vested by our Constitution with the power to make )Tj T* 0.1025 Tw (Rules concerning Captures on land and water and To make Rules for the Govern-)Tj 0 -1 TD 0.0525 Tw (ment and Regulation of the land and naval Forces. )Tj 1 -1 TD (Instead, they made the rules all by themselves in secret. )Tj T* 0.165 Tw (I expect that at the end of the day they calculated the legislature would not let )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.1525 Tw (them do what they wanted to do and that this calculation influenced heavily their )Tj T* 0.225 Tw (decision to operate in secret. By my research and evidence, they even decided to )Tj T* 0.22 Tw (keep the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the other Joint Chiefs, the Joint )Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (Staff, and the Service JAGs out of their secret deliberations and actions as well. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.1175 Tw (Mr. Chairman, the hard core of Secretary Rumsfelds memos authorized as many )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.1125 Tw (as 30 techniques by my calculations \(a through dd on one memo\). As U.S. Navy )Tj T* 0.0625 Tw (Captain and JAG officer Alberto Mora has pointed out, no one seems to have consid-)Tj T* 0.1725 Tw (ered the possibilities of an interrogator employing eight or ten of the authorized )Tj T* 0.1575 Tw (techniques at the same time, over extended periods, in near-hypothermic tempera-)Tj T* 0.16 Tw (tures, in darkness and in isolation, and the final results. Some would sayindeed )Tj T* 0.1125 Tw (experts have saidthe results would be worse than actual physical torture. No one )Tj T* 0.1775 Tw (at the highest levels of the Department of Defense, including its Secretary, seems )Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (to have considered this, even for a moment. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.115 Tw (Likewise, no one seems to have considered what I call the basic soldier test \(how )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.2425 Tw (could they?none of them were soldiers and they had removed the real soldiers )Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (from their deliberations\). )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.3075 Tw (What I mean by this is, for example, if you tell a soldier under pressure to )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.175 Tw (produce actionable intelligence that he can use a muzzled dog, he will do it faith-)Tj T* 0.21 Tw (fully. And when that doesnt workand it isnt likely tothe soldier will remove )Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (the muzzle. And when that doesnt work, he will let the dog take a bite. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.1175 Tw (That is the basic soldier test which should be applied to all such finely-tuned de-)Tj -1 -1 TD 0 Tw (liberations. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.21 Tw (Similarly, when you slap on the Abu Ghraib prison wall as many as three dif-)Tj -1 -1 TD 0.115 Tw (ferent checklists in a 30-day period, checklists that tell the interrogators what they )Tj /F6 1 Tf 6.5 0 0 6.5 25 20 Tm 1 g 0 Tw [(VerDate Aug 31 2005 )-1076.9(11:36 Feb 04, 2009)-1076.9(Jkt 000000)-1076.9(PO 00000)-1076.9(Frm 00025)-1076.9(Fmt 6633)-1076.9(Sfmt 6621)-1076.9(H:\\WORK\\CONST\\061808\\42972.000)-1076.9(HJUD1)-1076.9(PsN: 42972)]TJ ET endstream endobj 87 0 obj << /ProcSet [/PDF /Text ] /Font << /F1 4 0 R /F6 9 0 R >> /ExtGState << /GS1 10 0 R >> >> endobj 89 0 obj << /Length 6017 >> stream BT /F1 1 Tf 10 0 0 10 300.44 661 Tm 0 g /GS1 gs 0 Tc 0 Tw (22 )Tj 8 0 0 8 147 643 Tm 0.125 Tw (can do, you are asking for trouble. Mastering one checklist is about all you can ex-)Tj 0 -1.0125 TD 0.17 Tw (pect of a soldier under the sorry conditions that existed at that prison. And when )Tj T* 0.185 Tw (the prison guards are encouraged to prep their charges \(this, too, is against the )Tj T* 0.205 Tw (rules of course, ordering the soldiers guarding the detainees to prep them\), you )Tj T* 0.115 Tw (are asking for more trouble. Send an aggressive two-star general into the fray, just )Tj T* 0.155 Tw (arrived from GITMO where the gloves are off and things are happening, and your )Tj T* 0.085 Tw (trouble reaches the sort of levels of which the world saw visual evidence in the pho-)Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (tographs from Abu Ghraib. )Tj 1 -1.0125 TD 0.175 Tw (It is nothing new that uniformed military personnel, trying to accommodate the )Tj -1 -1.0125 TD 0.155 Tw (twin pressures of actionable intelligence and the gloves are off, plus being under )Tj T* 0.1475 Tw (the immediate pressure to take actions that will keep their buddies alive, will vio-)Tj T* 0.07 Tw (late the rules. Some of them will even do so with gusto if they perceive their officers )Tj T* 0.1 Tw (to be in the game with them. And too many of the officers will be in the game with )Tj T* 0.1075 Tw (them if they perceive that all the way up the chain of command, as far as they can )Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (see, the leadership approves. )Tj 1 -1.0125 TD 0.095 Tw (Mr. Chairman, as you no doubt realize there is much, much more that I have not )Tj -1 -1.0125 TD 0.0925 Tw (delved into. There is bad leadership enough to sink a battleship, poor decision-mak-)Tj T* 0.1375 Tw (ing, a dysfunctional bureaucracy, and a President too removed from the day-to-day )Tj T* 0.13 Tw (details of a war he essentially declared himself, with the help of a Congress acting )Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (largely as a rubber stamp. )Tj 1 -1.0125 TD 0.2275 Tw (As a student and teacher of every presidents decision-making since Truman, I )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.0725 Tw (find the present circumstances rich ground to plow. There are unique insights avail-)Tj T* 0.145 Tw (able with every president, but none so full of such insights into failure as the cur-)Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (rent one. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.11 Tw (But as a soldier and a citizen I do not find this rich ground for an academic very )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.0525 Tw (uplifting. Instead I find it dangerous. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.17 Tw (We have damaged our reputation in the world and thus reduced our power. We )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.105 Tw (were once seen as the paragon of law; we are now in many corners of the globe the )Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (laughing stock of the law. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.2775 Tw (What has brought about this change is Abu Ghraib, Guanta)Tj 29.7246 0.076 TD 0 Tw ()Tj 0.4445 -0.076 TD 0.2775 Tw (namo, secret ren-)Tj -31.1691 -1 TD 0.1925 Tw (ditions, what much of the world perceives as an unlawful war in Iraq, and, more )Tj T* 0.1475 Tw (than all of these, a refusal to recognize and acknowledge any of this and do some-)Tj T* 0.0525 Tw (thing about it. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.165 Tw (I hope this subcommittees efforts to deal with this failure will prove successful. )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.265 Tw (I also hope that a new president in 2009, whether it is John McCain or Barak )Tj T* 0.0675 Tw (Obama, will move swiftly to tell the world that Americathe real Americais back. )Tj T* 0.1625 Tw (In the realm of foreign policy, that will mean at a minimum closing Guanta)Tj 36.4695 0.076 TD 0 Tw ()Tj 0.4445 -0.076 TD (namo, )Tj -36.914 -1 TD 0.0525 Tw (repudiating torture and abuse, and realigning our strategy in the Middle East. )Tj 1 -1 TD (Thank you and I look forward to your questions. )Tj 10 0 0 10 157 321.0001 Tm 0.21 Tw (Mr. N)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 186.6896 321.0001 Tm 0 Tw (ADLER)Tj 10 0 0 10 215.5771 321.0001 Tm 0.21 Tw (. And we will now go through the questions of the )Tj -6.8577 -1 TD 0.068 Tw (witnesses. As we ask questions of our witnesses, the Chair will rec-)Tj T* 0.498 Tw (ognize Members in the order of their seniority on the Sub-)Tj T* 0.294 Tw (committee, alternating between Majority and Minority, and pro-)Tj T* 0.182 Tw (vided the Member is present when his or her turn arrives. Mem-)Tj T* 0.084 Tw (bers who are not present when their turn begins will be recognized )Tj T* 0.29 Tw (after the other Members have had the opportunity to ask their )Tj T* 0.126 Tw (questions. The Chair reserves the right to accommodate if a Mem-)Tj T* 0.118 Tw (ber is unavoidably late or only able to be with us for a short time. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.156 Tw (I will begin by recognizing myself for 5 minutes to question the )Tj -1 -1 TD 0 Tw (witnesses. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.266 Tw (First, Mr. Levin, a series of questions for you. ABC News re-)Tj -1 -1 TD 0.064 Tw (ported that after issuing the December 2004 memo, you were work-)Tj T* 0.14 Tw (ing on another, more specific interrogation memo imposing tighter )Tj T* 0.304 Tw (controls on interrogation techniques. The report states that you )Tj T* 0.11 Tw (never finished this memo and instead were, forced out of the Jus-)Tj T* 0.074 Tw (tice Department when Alberto Gonzales became Attorney General. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (Was your departure from OLC voluntary? )Tj T* 0.136 Tw (Mr. L)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 184.4696 141.0001 Tm 0 Tw (EVIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 205.7973 141.0001 Tm 0.136 Tw (. I would preferred to have stayed. I guess that is the )Tj -5.8797 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (best way to answer. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.204 Tw (Mr. N)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 186.6296 121.0001 Tm 0 Tw (ADLER)Tj 10 0 0 10 215.5171 121.0001 Tm 0.204 Tw (. And is it true that you did not finish a follow-up )Tj -6.8517 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (memorandum because of your removal at that point? )Tj /F6 1 Tf 6.5 0 0 6.5 25 20 Tm 1 g 0 Tw [(VerDate Aug 31 2005 )-1076.9(11:36 Feb 04, 2009)-1076.9(Jkt 000000)-1076.9(PO 00000)-1076.9(Frm 00026)-1076.9(Fmt 6633)-1076.9(Sfmt 6601)-1076.9(H:\\WORK\\CONST\\061808\\42972.000)-1076.9(HJUD1)-1076.9(PsN: 42972)]TJ ET endstream endobj 90 0 obj << /ProcSet [/PDF /Text ] /Font << /F1 4 0 R /F6 9 0 R >> /ExtGState << /GS1 10 0 R >> >> endobj 92 0 obj << /Length 6080 >> stream BT /F1 1 Tf 10 0 0 10 300.44 661 Tm 0 g /GS1 gs 0 Tc 0 Tw (23 )Tj -14.344 -2 TD 0.052 Tw (Mr. L)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 183.6296 641 Tm 0 Tw (EVIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 204.9573 641 Tm 0.052 Tw (. That is correct. )Tj -4.7957 -1.02 TD 0.168 Tw (Mr. N)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 186.2696 630.8 Tm 0 Tw (ADLER)Tj 10 0 0 10 215.1571 630.8 Tm 0.168 Tw (. And is the ABC report accurate that you were re-)Tj -6.8157 -1.02 TD 0.104 Tw (moved because your follow-up memo would have imposed limits on )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (waterboarding or other interrogation techniques? )Tj 1 -1.02 TD 0.244 Tw (Mr. L)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 185.5496 600.2 Tm 0 Tw (EVIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 206.8773 600.2 Tm 0.244 Tw (. I dont know the reason for why I was removed. I )Tj -5.9877 -1.02 TD 0.212 Tw (dont know the answer to that, sir, why that decision was made. )Tj 1 -1.02 TD 0.052 Tw (Mr. N)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 185.1096 579.8 Tm 0 Tw (ADLER)Tj 10 0 0 10 213.9971 579.8 Tm 0.052 Tw (. So you cant say yes or no to that question? )Tj -5.6997 -1.02 TD (Mr. L)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 183.6296 569.6 Tm 0 Tw (EVIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 204.9573 569.6 Tm 0.052 Tw (. I cant. I was not told a reason. )Tj -4.7957 -1.02 TD 0.132 Tw (Mr. N)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 185.9096 559.4 Tm 0 Tw (ADLER)Tj 10 0 0 10 214.7971 559.4 Tm 0.132 Tw (. And so you do not know if your views on imposing )Tj -6.7797 -1.02 TD 0.25 Tw (tighter controls on interrogations were related to the decision to )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (have you removed from that position? )Tj 1 -1.02 TD (Mr. L)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 183.6296 528.8 Tm 0 Tw (EVIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 204.9573 528.8 Tm 0.052 Tw (. I do not. No, sir. )Tj -4.7957 -1.02 TD 0.318 Tw (Mr. N)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 187.7696 518.6 Tm 0 Tw (ADLER)Tj 10 0 0 10 216.6571 518.6 Tm 0.318 Tw (. Now, Newsweek reported, referring to you, that )Tj -6.9657 -1.02 TD 0.142 Tw (battles at the White House took their toll on your political future. )Tj 1 -1.02 TD 0.052 Tw (Is that statement accurate, or is that speculative? )Tj T* (Mr. L)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 183.6296 488 Tm 0 Tw (EVIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 204.9573 488 Tm 0.052 Tw (. Again, sir, I dont know the answer to that. )Tj -4.7957 -1.02 TD 0.068 Tw (Mr. N)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 185.2696 477.8 Tm 0 Tw (ADLER)Tj 10 0 0 10 214.1571 477.8 Tm 0.068 Tw (. Now, John Yoo has written that the December 2004 )Tj -6.7157 -1.02 TD 0.064 Tw (replacement opinion you drafted was done for appearances sake, in )Tj T* 0.186 Tw (quotes, and that, no policies or interrogation techniques changed )Tj T* 0.204 Tw (as a result of the withdrawal of the torture memo. Mr. Yoo has )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (also said that, the OLCs reversal was pure politics. )Tj 1 -1.02 TD 0.316 Tw (Do you agree that nothing changed as a result of your 2004 )Tj -1 -1.02 TD 0.168 Tw (memo? Do you agree that the 2004 memo you authored was pure )Tj T* 0 Tw (politics? )Tj 1 -1.02 TD 0.16 Tw (Mr. L)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 184.7096 396.2 Tm 0 Tw (EVIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 206.0373 396.2 Tm 0.16 Tw (. I certainly dont agree that it was pure politics, and )Tj -5.9037 -1.02 TD 0.12 Tw (I dont think it is accurate that nothing changed as a result of the )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (change in legal analysis. )Tj 1 -1.02 TD 0.07 Tw (Mr. N)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 185.2896 365.6 Tm 0 Tw (ADLER)Tj 10 0 0 10 214.1771 365.6 Tm 0.07 Tw (. What do you think was the change? How would you )Tj -6.7177 -1.02 TD 0.052 Tw (characterize the change? )Tj 1 -1.02 TD 0.244 Tw (Mr. L)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 185.5496 345.2 Tm 0 Tw (EVIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 206.8773 345.2 Tm 0.244 Tw (. Well, I unfortunately am not authorized to discuss )Tj -5.9877 -1.02 TD 0.108 Tw (certain matters, but I believe it is the case that there were certain )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (changes in practices as a result of the change in legal analysis. )Tj 1 -1.02 TD 0.256 Tw (Mr. N)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 187.1496 314.6 Tm 0 Tw (ADLER)Tj 10 0 0 10 216.0371 314.6 Tm 0.256 Tw (. So as a result of the change in your memo, you )Tj -6.9037 -1.02 TD 0.518 Tw (think there were changes in practices. That means required )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (changes in interrogation policies? )Tj 1 -1.02 TD (Mr. L)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 183.6296 284 Tm 0 Tw (EVIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 204.9573 284 Tm 0.052 Tw (. I believe that is the case. Yes, sir. )Tj -4.7957 -1.02 TD 0.17 Tw (Mr. N)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 186.2896 273.8 Tm 0 Tw (ADLER)Tj 10 0 0 10 215.1771 273.8 Tm 0.17 Tw (. Now, John Yoo told the Washington Post that the )Tj -6.8177 -1.02 TD 0.13 Tw (interrogation memos that he authored were, near boilerplate. Do )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (you agree with that assessment? )Tj 1 -1.02 TD (Mr. L)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 183.6296 243.2 Tm 0 Tw (EVIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 204.9573 243.2 Tm 0.052 Tw (. No, I dont, sir. )Tj -4.7957 -1.02 TD 0.352 Tw (Mr. N)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 188.1096 233 Tm 0 Tw (ADLER)Tj 10 0 0 10 216.9971 233 Tm 0.352 Tw (. You think they were more significant than not )Tj -6.9997 -1.02 TD 0 Tw (boilerplate? )Tj 1 -1.02 TD 0.488 Tw (Mr. L)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 187.9896 212.6 Tm 0 Tw (EVIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 209.3173 212.6 Tm 0.488 Tw (. Well, I dont exactly know what he means by )Tj -6.2317 -1.02 TD 0.2 Tw (boilerplate, but there were statements in them that I think were )Tj T* 0.132 Tw (notif, again, boilerplate means commonplace and accepted, there )Tj T* 0.106 Tw (were statements in there that I do not think were commonplace or )Tj T* 0 Tw (accepted. )Tj 1 -1.02 TD 0.116 Tw (Mr. N)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 185.7496 161.6 Tm 0 Tw (ADLER)Tj 10 0 0 10 214.6371 161.6 Tm 0.116 Tw (. And do you believe that those memos represent re-)Tj -6.7637 -1.02 TD 0.112 Tw (sponsible scholarship consistent with the traditions of the Office of )Tj 0 -1.01 TD 0.052 Tw (Legal Counsel? )Tj 1 -1.01 TD 0.23 Tw (Mr. L)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 185.4096 131.1999 Tm 0 Tw (EVIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 206.7373 131.1999 Tm 0.23 Tw (. Well, I am reluctant to criticize John. I think that )Tj -5.9737 -1.01 TD 0.172 Tw (there were aspects of those memos that I would not have written )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (that way. )Tj /F6 1 Tf 6.5 0 0 6.5 25 20 Tm 1 g 0 Tw [(VerDate Aug 31 2005 )-1076.9(11:36 Feb 04, 2009)-1076.9(Jkt 000000)-1076.9(PO 00000)-1076.9(Frm 00027)-1076.9(Fmt 6633)-1076.9(Sfmt 6601)-1076.9(H:\\WORK\\CONST\\061808\\42972.000)-1076.9(HJUD1)-1076.9(PsN: 42972)]TJ ET endstream endobj 93 0 obj << /ProcSet [/PDF /Text ] /Font << /F1 4 0 R /F6 9 0 R >> /ExtGState << /GS1 10 0 R >> >> endobj 95 0 obj << /Length 5417 >> stream BT /F1 1 Tf 10 0 0 10 300.44 661 Tm 0 g /GS1 gs 0 Tc 0 Tw (24 )Tj -14.344 -2 TD 0.232 Tw (Mr. N)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 186.9096 641 Tm 0 Tw (ADLER)Tj 10 0 0 10 215.7971 641 Tm 0.232 Tw (. Okay. And, finally, in a debate in 2005, Mr. Yoo )Tj -6.8797 -1 TD 0.13 Tw (was asked if the President could torture a suspects child if he be-)Tj T* 0.21 Tw (lieved that was necessary in time of war. The specificI am not )Tj T* 0.24 Tw (going to go into the specific example. It was rather gruesome of )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (what you might do to the suspects child. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.352 Tw (Mr. Yoo answered: I think it depends on why the President )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (thinks he needs to do that. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.158 Tw (Do you agree with John Yoo that the President, as Commander )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.16 Tw (in Chief, that his power as Commander in Chief would allow him )Tj T* 0.174 Tw (to order a detainees child to be abused if he believed it was nec-)Tj T* 0.052 Tw (essary for the national defense? )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.168 Tw (Mr. L)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 184.7896 530.9999 Tm 0 Tw (EVIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 206.1173 530.9999 Tm 0.168 Tw (. I cant imagine a situation where that would be the )Tj -5.9117 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (case, sir. )Tj 1 -1 TD (Mr. N)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 185.1096 510.9999 Tm 0 Tw (ADLER)Tj 10 0 0 10 213.9971 510.9999 Tm 0.052 Tw (. Thank you. )Tj -5.6997 -1 TD 0.064 Tw (Colonel Wilkerson, in your prepared testimony you write that: As )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.078 Tw (I compiled my dossier for Secretary Powell, and as I did further re-)Tj T* 0.296 Tw (search, and as my views grew firmer and firmer, I needed fre-)Tj T* 0.188 Tw (quently to reread that memo; that is to say, the memorandum of )Tj T* 0.278 Tw (February 7, 2002. I need to balance in my own mind the over-)Tj T* 0.092 Tw (whelming evidence that my own Government has sanctioned abuse )Tj T* 0.06 Tw (and torture, which, at its worst, has led to the murder of 25 detain-)Tj T* 0.15 Tw (ees and a total of at least 100 detainee deaths. We had murdered )Tj T* 0.088 Tw (25 or more people in detention. That was the clear low point of the )Tj T* 0 Tw (evidence. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.164 Tw (So your testimony is that 100 detainees have died in detention, )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (and that you believe 25 of those were, in effect, murdered? )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.152 Tw (Colonel W)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 205.7393 381 Tm 0 Tw (ILKERSON)Tj 10 0 0 10 249.8906 381 Tm 0.152 Tw (. Mr. Chairman, I think the number is actu-)Tj -10.2891 -1 TD 0.054 Tw (ally higher than that now. The last time I checked, there was about )Tj T* 0.262 Tw (108. And the total number that were declared homicides by the )Tj T* 0.16 Tw (military services or by the CIA or others doing investigation, CID )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (and so forth, was 25, 26, 27. )Tj 1 -1 TD (Mr. N)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 185.1096 330.9999 Tm 0 Tw (ADLER)Tj 10 0 0 10 213.9971 330.9999 Tm 0.052 Tw (. Were declared homicide? )Tj -5.6997 -1 TD 0.24 Tw (Colonel W)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 206.6193 320.9999 Tm 0 Tw (ILKERSON)Tj 10 0 0 10 250.7706 320.9999 Tm 0.24 Tw (. Correct. Starting as early as December in )Tj -10.3771 -1 TD 0 Tw (Afghanistan. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.198 Tw (Mr. N)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 186.5696 300.9999 Tm 0 Tw (ADLER)Tj 10 0 0 10 215.4571 300.9999 Tm 0.198 Tw (. And these are homicides committed by people en-)Tj -6.8457 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (gaged in an interrogation? )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.164 Tw (Colonel W)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 205.8593 280.9999 Tm 0 Tw (ILKERSON)Tj 10 0 0 10 250.0106 280.9999 Tm 0.164 Tw (. Or in guarding prisoners or something like )Tj -10.3011 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (that. People who were in detention. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.2 Tw (Mr. N)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 186.5896 260.9999 Tm 0 Tw (ADLER)Tj 10 0 0 10 215.4771 260.9999 Tm 0.2 Tw (. So these werent people trying to escape or some-)Tj -6.8477 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (thing. They were declared homicides by our own authorities? )Tj 1 -1 TD (Colonel W)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 204.7393 240.9999 Tm 0 Tw (ILKERSON)Tj 10 0 0 10 248.8906 240.9999 Tm 0.052 Tw (. Right. )Tj -9.1891 -1 TD (Mr. N)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 185.1096 230.9999 Tm 0 Tw (ADLER)Tj 10 0 0 10 213.9971 230.9999 Tm 0.052 Tw (. Do you know if any were prosecuted? )Tj -5.6997 -1 TD 0.242 Tw (Colonel W)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 206.6393 220.9999 Tm 0 Tw (ILKERSON)Tj 10 0 0 10 250.7906 220.9999 Tm 0.242 Tw (. As far as I know, several were. And they )Tj -10.3791 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (have come to different conclusions. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.23 Tw (As an experienced military officer, one of the things that indi-)Tj -1 -1 TD 0.258 Tw (cated to me early on as I examined the result of some of these )Tj T* 0.262 Tw (courts-martial was that the punishment being rendered to these )Tj T* 0.076 Tw (people, especially the lower-ranking people, didnt match the crime. )Tj T* 0.058 Tw (And quickly, for a military officer, I know how that works: We have )Tj T* 0.078 Tw (an extremely fair system in the military, the Uniform Code of Mili-)Tj T* 0.204 Tw (tary Justice. If I were going to be tried, I would much rather be )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (tried under it than I would in a civilian court. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.064 Tw (So what was happening was a jury of their peers, if you will, offi-)Tj -1 -1 TD 0.086 Tw (cers and NCOs and enlisted personnel, knew that these people had )Tj /F6 1 Tf 6.5 0 0 6.5 25 20 Tm 1 g 0 Tw [(VerDate Aug 31 2005 )-1076.9(11:36 Feb 04, 2009)-1076.9(Jkt 000000)-1076.9(PO 00000)-1076.9(Frm 00028)-1076.9(Fmt 6633)-1076.9(Sfmt 6601)-1076.9(H:\\WORK\\CONST\\061808\\42972.000)-1076.9(HJUD1)-1076.9(PsN: 42972)]TJ ET endstream endobj 96 0 obj << /ProcSet [/PDF /Text ] /Font << /F1 4 0 R /F6 9 0 R >> /ExtGState << /GS1 10 0 R >> >> endobj 98 0 obj << /Length 5342 >> stream BT /F1 1 Tf 10 0 0 10 300.44 661 Tm 0 g /GS1 gs 0 Tc 0 Tw (25 )Tj -15.344 -2 TD 0.06 Tw (performed under great tension and stress, and so it is my view that )Tj 0 -1.04 TD 0.286 Tw (they were rendering verdicts of reduced to private first class, 2 )Tj T* 0.318 Tw (months of pay, Article 15-type punishment, for example, rather )Tj T* 0.158 Tw (than the kind of punishment that would have matched the crime. )Tj 1 -1.04 TD 0.128 Tw (That was one of the insights I early gained into this as I looked )Tj -1 -1.04 TD 0.122 Tw (at my Army in particular taking this action. And I said, now, why )Tj T* 0.394 Tw (are these people not being given sentences appropriate to the )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (crime, or at least what would appear to be? )Tj 1 -1.04 TD (Mr. N)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 185.1096 557.8 Tm 0 Tw (ADLER)Tj 10 0 0 10 213.9971 557.8 Tm 0.052 Tw (. And your supposition is? )Tj -5.6997 -1.04 TD 0.296 Tw (Colonel W)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 207.1793 547.4001 Tm 0 Tw (ILKERSON)Tj 10 0 0 10 251.3306 547.4001 Tm 0.296 Tw (. And my supposition is the people on the )Tj -10.4331 -1.04 TD 0.072 Tw (jury of your peers, the colonels and the NCOs and so forth, and the )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (military judges, they knew the background. )Tj 1 -1.04 TD 0.12 Tw (Mr. N)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 185.7896 516.2001 Tm 0 Tw (ADLER)Tj 10 0 0 10 214.6771 516.2001 Tm 0.12 Tw (. I will get to you more in the second round of ques-)Tj -6.7677 -1.04 TD 0.168 Tw (tioning, but I have one question to follow up on this, and that is, )Tj T* 0.238 Tw (your judgment as a career military officer is that these prosecu-)Tj T* 0.19 Tw (tions were handled in a way that would lead you to suspect that )Tj T* 0.35 Tw (the conduct that resulted in these homicides were tolerated or )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (sanctioned from higher authority? )Tj 1 -1.04 TD 0.346 Tw (Colonel W)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 207.6793 453.8001 Tm 0 Tw (ILKERSON)Tj 10 0 0 10 251.8306 453.8001 Tm 0.346 Tw (. I think it was fairly common knowledge )Tj -10.4831 -1.04 TD 0.072 Tw (throughout the very small Army that we have now that individuals )Tj T* 0.112 Tw (in both the military police, military intelligence, interrogators, and )Tj T* 0.056 Tw (so forth were under enormous pressure to produce intelligence. And )Tj T* 0.1 Tw (they were also being given guidance that they could do things that )Tj T* 0.076 Tw (werent necessarily in consonance with the law of the land warfare, )Tj T* 0.154 Tw (certainly not in consonance with Common Article 3 of the Geneva )Tj T* 0.128 Tw (Convention or even the conventions themselves. And so that made )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (people be more lenient. )Tj 1 -1.04 TD (Mr. N)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 185.1096 360.2001 Tm 0 Tw (ADLER)Tj 10 0 0 10 213.9971 360.2001 Tm 0.052 Tw (. Thank you. My time has expired. )Tj -5.6997 -1.04 TD 0.076 Tw (I will now recognize the distinguished Ranking Minority Member )Tj -1 -1.04 TD 0.052 Tw (of the Committee, Mr. Franks. )Tj 1 -1.04 TD (Mr. F)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 183.6296 329.0001 Tm 0 Tw (RANKS)Tj 10 0 0 10 212.9651 329.0001 Tm 0.052 Tw (. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. )Tj -5.5965 -1.04 TD 0.404 Tw (Colonel Wilkerson, I always appreciate anyone who has put )Tj -1 -1.04 TD 0.136 Tw (themselves on the line for the cause of freedom. I did want to ask )Tj T* 0.134 Tw (you something that kind of struck me. You cited as a comparative )Tj T* 0.114 Tw (a circumstance where you were in a combat zone, and you were in )Tj T* 0.056 Tw (a free-fire zone, and that a 12-year-old girl walked up the road, and )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (that you broke the rules and chose not to shoot her. )Tj 1 -1.04 TD 0.102 Tw (Were you under rules that would require you to shoot a 12-year- )Tj -1 -1.04 TD 0.07 Tw (old girl, or was this something that would have been up to you, but )Tj T* 0.15 Tw (would have required you to break the rules to keep from shooting )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (a 12-year-old girl? )Tj 1 -1.04 TD 0.236 Tw (Colonel W)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 206.5793 214.6001 Tm 0 Tw (ILKERSON)Tj 10 0 0 10 250.7306 214.6001 Tm 0.236 Tw (. I cant tell you how many radio conversa-)Tj -10.3731 -1.04 TD 0.052 Tw (tions on Fox Mike that I had with )Tj 1 -1.04 TD 0.08 Tw (Mr. F)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 183.9096 193.8001 Tm 0 Tw (RANKS)Tj 10 0 0 10 213.2451 193.8001 Tm 0.08 Tw (. But that is a yes or no question. Were you breaking )Tj -6.6245 -1.04 TD 0.052 Tw (the rules by not shooting her? )Tj 1 -1.04 TD (Colonel W)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 204.7393 173.0001 Tm 0 Tw (ILKERSON)Tj 10 0 0 10 248.8906 173.0001 Tm 0.052 Tw (. May I answer the question? )Tj -9.1891 -1.04 TD (Mr. F)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 183.6296 162.6001 Tm 0 Tw (RANKS)Tj 10 0 0 10 212.9651 162.6001 Tm 0.052 Tw (. Sure. )Tj -5.5965 -1.04 TD 0.198 Tw (Colonel W)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 206.1993 152.2001 Tm 0 Tw (ILKERSON)Tj 10 0 0 10 250.3506 152.2001 Tm 0.198 Tw (. I had conversations with higher officers in )Tj -10.3351 -1.03 TD 0.16 Tw (Vietnam who, when anything was encountered in a free-fire zone, )Tj T* 0.066 Tw (essentially said you are free to engage it. Then it was up to my dis-)Tj T* 0.204 Tw (cretion as to whether I didnt or not. And clearly, as I indicated, )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (in this case I wouldnt. )Tj /F6 1 Tf 6.5 0 0 6.5 25 20 Tm 1 g 0 Tw [(VerDate Aug 31 2005 )-1076.9(11:36 Feb 04, 2009)-1076.9(Jkt 000000)-1076.9(PO 00000)-1076.9(Frm 00029)-1076.9(Fmt 6633)-1076.9(Sfmt 6601)-1076.9(H:\\WORK\\CONST\\061808\\42972.000)-1076.9(HJUD1)-1076.9(PsN: 42972)]TJ ET endstream endobj 99 0 obj << /ProcSet [/PDF /Text ] /Font << /F1 4 0 R /F6 9 0 R >> /ExtGState << /GS1 10 0 R >> >> endobj 101 0 obj << /Length 5055 >> stream BT /F1 1 Tf 10 0 0 10 300.44 661 Tm 0 g /GS1 gs 0 Tc 0 Tw (26 )Tj -14.344 -2 TD 0.136 Tw (Now, it is not even as black and white as that. Had she had an )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.15 Tw (AK-47 and been shooting back at me, indeed I might have. But it )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (would have taken that kind of evidence for me to engage. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.326 Tw (Mr. F)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 186.3696 611 Tm 0 Tw (RANKS)Tj 10 0 0 10 215.7052 611 Tm 0.326 Tw (. I understand. But your testimony was that you )Tj -6.8705 -1 TD 0.268 Tw (broke the rules and chose not to shoot her. ThatI understand )Tj T* 0.266 Tw (that you had the option. But I dont think youI mean, it just )Tj T* 0.216 Tw (seems astonishing to me that you would have been under a rule )Tj T* 0.198 Tw (that would have required you to shoot her. And I just wanted to )Tj T* 0.144 Tw (point that out, it just struck me wrong. Forgive me if I misunder-)Tj T* 0.052 Tw (stood it. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.054 Tw (Mr. Rivkin, Colonel Wilkerson states in his written testimony the )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.208 Tw (following: No one seems to have considered what I call the basic )Tj T* 0.138 Tw (soldier test. What I mean by this is, for example, if you tell a sol-)Tj T* 0.158 Tw (dier under pressure to produce actionable intelligence that he can )Tj T* 0.15 Tw (use a muzzled dog, he will do it faithfully. And when that doesnt )Tj T* 0.086 Tw (work, and it isnt likely to, the soldier will remove the muzzle. And )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (when that doesnt work, he will let the dog take a bite. )Tj 1 -1 TD (What do you make of that statement? )Tj T* (Mr. R)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 184.1796 460.9999 Tm 0 Tw (IVKIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 209.2112 460.9999 Tm 0.052 Tw (. Thank you, Congressman Franks. )Tj -5.2211 -1 TD 0.248 Tw (With all due humility, since, unlike Colonel Wilkerson, I have )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.222 Tw (never served in combat, but I fancy myself a bit of a student in )Tj T* 0.24 Tw (military history, I would strongly disagree with the statement. I )Tj T* 0.25 Tw (would say that a well-disciplined military, particularly American )Tj T* 0.242 Tw (military, is probably the best institution among any other set of )Tj T* 0.164 Tw (public institutions that is capable of very nuanced behavior, oper-)Tj T* 0.082 Tw (ating in very different environments with different rules of engage-)Tj T* 0.066 Tw (ment. For example, you have military units, knowing the difference )Tj T* 0.31 Tw (between operating with live ammunition, using nonlethal muni-)Tj T* 0.064 Tw (tions, versus using lethal munitions. The military is able to operate )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (in different drills and all sorts of different environments. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.094 Tw (Now, I understand the dilemma of having ambiguous orders, but )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.158 Tw (if you tell people that the dividing line is, again in his testimony, )Tj T* 0.152 Tw (to muzzle dogs, by golly, you dont take off a muzzle. If you do, it )Tj T* 0.132 Tw (is a serious failure of leadership at their officer corps level. And if )Tj T* 0.144 Tw (you tell them you can take the muzzle off, but there should be no )Tj T* 0.162 Tw (biting, by golly there should be no biting. I dont understand that )Tj T* 0.16 Tw (logic at all, and it certainly would not seem to be the modus ope-)Tj T* 0.052 Tw (randi in any law- and rule-complying military. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.08 Tw (Mr. F)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 183.9096 260.9999 Tm 0 Tw (RANKS)Tj 10 0 0 10 213.2451 260.9999 Tm 0.08 Tw (. Obviously I would agree with your assessment, that )Tj -6.6245 -1 TD 0.114 Tw (being able to precisely follow orders is not only a good idea, but in )Tj T* 0.164 Tw (many circumstances is absolutely critical to the survival of a par-)Tj T* 0.052 Tw (ticular unit or battle. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.078 Tw (Mr. Rivkin, as you reviewed the written testimony of some of the )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.152 Tw (other witnesses here today, I have been asked many times of wit-)Tj T* 0.084 Tw (nesses, tell us what should be the appropriate anti-terrorism policy )Tj T* 0.336 Tw (for interrogation. Did you find the materials here that you re-)Tj T* 0.092 Tw (viewed related to the other witnesses testimony here today helpful )Tj T* 0.064 Tw (in determining the contours of an appropriate anti-terrorism policy, )Tj T* 0.108 Tw (or were they lacking in significant ways? And could you elaborate? )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.058 Tw (Mr. R)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 184.2396 150.9999 Tm 0 Tw (IVKIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 209.2712 150.9999 Tm 0.058 Tw (. Thank you, Congressman. I hate to put myself in the )Tj -6.2271 -1 TD 0.258 Tw (position of being a bit of a schoolmaster, and these are difficult )Tj T* 0.06 Tw (issues, but I would at least suggest a couple things. And, again, not )Tj T* 0.138 Tw (to pick on Colonel Wilkerson, with all due respect, about the hun-)Tj T* 0.15 Tw (dred deaths, it is very important not to paint things with a broad )Tj /F6 1 Tf 6.5 0 0 6.5 25 20 Tm 1 g 0 Tw [(VerDate Aug 31 2005 )-1076.9(11:36 Feb 04, 2009)-1076.9(Jkt 000000)-1076.9(PO 00000)-1076.9(Frm 00030)-1076.9(Fmt 6633)-1076.9(Sfmt 6601)-1076.9(H:\\WORK\\CONST\\061808\\42972.000)-1076.9(HJUD1)-1076.9(PsN: 42972)]TJ ET endstream endobj 102 0 obj << /ProcSet [/PDF /Text ] /Font << /F1 4 0 R /F6 9 0 R >> /ExtGState << /GS1 10 0 R >> >> endobj 104 0 obj << /Length 4923 >> stream BT /F1 1 Tf 10 0 0 10 300.44 661 Tm 0 g /GS1 gs 0 Tc 0 Tw (27 )Tj -15.344 -2 TD 0.124 Tw (brush. You really need to drill down on what caused these deaths. )Tj 0 -1 TD 0.17 Tw (If these deaths were primarily caused in the context of interroga-)Tj T* 0.128 Tw (tion, that is very troubling. If these deaths were caused by guards )Tj T* 0.106 Tw (overstepping their authority or some other reasons, that would not )Tj T* 0.064 Tw (necessarily be terribly relevant to the question of interrogation rou-)Tj T* 0 Tw (tines. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.084 Tw (And another thing I would say, and I will draw on my own expe-)Tj -1 -1 TD 0.276 Tw (rience back in my Department of Justice days, I had an oppor-)Tj T* 0.062 Tw (tunity to look at, shall we say, some problems involving the Bureau )Tj T* 0.096 Tw (of Prisons. Lets be honest, abuses by inmates against inmates and )Tj T* 0.1 Tw (guards sometimes acting in good faith and sometimes acting sadis-)Tj T* 0.15 Tw (tically without any justification are endemic in prison systems, ci-)Tj T* 0.282 Tw (vilian and military, Federal and State. You always have to ask )Tj T* 0.172 Tw (yourselves a question as a citizen, particularly as a lawyer: What )Tj T* 0.062 Tw (is your current baseline? I mean, that is true whether investigating )Tj T* 0.18 Tw (corporations for abuses of worker safety or something else. Is the )Tj T* 0.298 Tw (current behavior dramatically divergent from the past historical )Tj T* 0.092 Tw (baseline? If the answer is no, it doesnt mean you rest on your lau-)Tj T* 0.232 Tw (rels; you try to drive the misconduct down to zero. But you cer-)Tj T* 0.052 Tw (tainly dont stagger about in dramatic indignation. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.186 Tw (You have to look very carefully at what is the baseline of pris-)Tj -1 -1 TD 0.106 Tw (oner-related abuse in World War I, World War II, Korea, Vietnam, )Tj T* 0.268 Tw (Spanish-American War. And I am sure the Defense Department )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (has these statistics. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.136 Tw (The anecdotal evidence that I have heard from people who have )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.07 Tw (actually served in the military, particularly in the time of Vietnam, )Tj T* 0.38 Tw (is that the behavior of American troops is dramatically better )Tj T* 0.126 Tw (measuredand, again, statistics is a difficult matter, but in terms )Tj T* 0.098 Tw (of percentage or relative to, lets say, 100 detainees or 1,000 troops )Tj T* 0.136 Tw (in the field is dramatically better than in Vietnam and Korea and )Tj T* 0.142 Tw (even World War II. Again, that doesnt mean that it is wonderful, )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (but that is a fact. And I have not seen this nuanced. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.25 Tw (Another thing that bothers me very deeply is, lets be clear, I )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.09 Tw (never supported waterboarding. I tend to think that waterboarding )Tj T* 0.212 Tw (by and large is not torture and certainly CID. But why cant we )Tj T* 0.176 Tw (have a serious discussion about things other than waterboarding? )Tj T* 0.158 Tw (Why cant we have a serious discussion about stress interrogation )Tj T* 0.068 Tw (techniques that arent pleasant, but dont rise to that level? But ev-)Tj T* 0.052 Tw (erything 99 percent of the time gets pivoted off waterboarding? And )Tj T* 0.074 Tw (thatI mean, we should be able as a society to have nuanced rules )Tj T* 0.104 Tw (that rules out some levels of coercion, but allows some levels of co-)Tj T* 0.146 Tw (ercion in. And it is very difficult to have a serious debate because )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (everything is portrayed in the same light. )Tj 1 -1 TD (Thank you. )Tj T* (Mr. F)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 183.6296 200.9999 Tm 0 Tw (RANKS)Tj 10 0 0 10 212.9651 200.9999 Tm 0.052 Tw (. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My time has expired. )Tj -5.5965 -1 TD 0.11 Tw (Mr. N)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 185.6896 190.9999 Tm 0 Tw (ADLER)Tj 10 0 0 10 214.5771 190.9999 Tm 0.11 Tw (. I now recognize for the purposes of questioning the )Tj -6.7577 -1 TD 0.118 Tw (witnesses the distinguished Chairman of the Judiciary Committee, )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (the gentleman from Michigan, Mr. Conyers. )Tj 1 -1 TD (Mr. C)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 184.1796 160.9999 Tm 0 Tw (ONYERS)Tj 10 0 0 10 219.147 160.9999 Tm 0.052 Tw (. Thank you, Chairman Nadler. )Tj -6.2147 -1 TD (Good to see you again here, Mr. Rivkin. )Tj T* 0.132 Tw (Colonel Wilkerson, did you believe that the President personally )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (approved the use of these tactics by the military? )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.344 Tw (Colonel W)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 207.6593 120.9999 Tm 0 Tw (ILKERSON)Tj 10 0 0 10 251.8106 120.9999 Tm 0.344 Tw (. When I read the Presidents 7 February )Tj -10.4811 -1 TD 0.192 Tw (memo, I saw it both as an academic and a person looking at the )Tj /F6 1 Tf 6.5 0 0 6.5 25 20 Tm 1 g 0 Tw [(VerDate Aug 31 2005 )-1076.9(11:36 Feb 04, 2009)-1076.9(Jkt 000000)-1076.9(PO 00000)-1076.9(Frm 00031)-1076.9(Fmt 6633)-1076.9(Sfmt 6601)-1076.9(H:\\WORK\\CONST\\061808\\42972.000)-1076.9(HJUD1)-1076.9(PsN: 42972)]TJ ET endstream endobj 105 0 obj << /ProcSet [/PDF /Text ] /Font << /F1 4 0 R /F6 9 0 R >> /ExtGState << /GS1 10 0 R >> >> endobj 108 0 obj << /Length 5143 >> stream BT /F1 1 Tf 10 0 0 10 300.44 661 Tm 0 g /GS1 gs 0 Tc 0 Tw (28 )Tj -15.344 -2 TD 0.144 Tw (charts the Secretary had written me. I saw it as a decision in the )Tj 0 -1 TD 0.176 Tw (post-1945 country we live in. That is to say, we tried to reconcile )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (our liberties with our security. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.114 Tw (That memo to me does not constitute the kind of order that oth-)Tj -1 -1 TD 0.194 Tw (ers have interpreted it to constitute. It constitutes a compromise. )Tj T* 0.132 Tw (The one thing that critics of my view have said is that it gives an )Tj T* 0.166 Tw (escape clause; the escape clause is consistent with military neces-)Tj T* 0.244 Tw (sity. And I point out to them that Presidents in the past, when )Tj T* 0.216 Tw (they wanted escape clauses, said things like consistent with na-)Tj T* 0.206 Tw (tional security or consistent with the dictates of the global war )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (on terror, something far more sweeping. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.216 Tw (Military necessity to me as a military man means if I have to )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.178 Tw (butt-stroke someone in order to save a life, I can do it. It doesnt )Tj T* 0.194 Tw (mean that I can hang someone from metal screens at Bagram in )Tj T* 0.408 Tw (Afghanistan and then beat him until he dies, as they did to )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (Dilawar on 10 December, 2002. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.202 Tw (So there is a real distinction, I think, between what the Presi-)Tj -1 -1 TD 0.06 Tw (dent authorized in that compromise and what actually happened as )Tj T* 0.116 Tw (it got interpreted through the DOD principally and the Vice Presi-)Tj T* 0.052 Tw (dents office and went down to the field. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.262 Tw (Mr. C)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 186.2796 441 Tm 0 Tw (ONYERS)Tj 10 0 0 10 221.247 441 Tm 0.262 Tw (. When you had discussions with Secretary Colin )Tj -7.4247 -1 TD 0.076 Tw (Powell about whether he believed that the President personally ap-)Tj T* 0.388 Tw (proved aggressive techniques, what opinion did you form from )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (those discussions? )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.076 Tw (Colonel W)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 204.9793 401 Tm 0 Tw (ILKERSON)Tj 10 0 0 10 249.1306 401 Tm 0.076 Tw (. Those were torturous discussions, if you will )Tj -10.2131 -1 TD 0.184 Tw (pardon the play. The Secretary was of a mind that the President )Tj T* 0.208 Tw (was fully complicit in everything that had happened. But I must )Tj T* 0.192 Tw (add that at that time, neither of us was really confident that we )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (knew exactly what had happened. So I qualify it with that. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.148 Tw (Mr. C)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 185.1396 350.9999 Tm 0 Tw (ONYERS)Tj 10 0 0 10 220.1071 350.9999 Tm 0.148 Tw (. And Secretary Powell, didnt at one point he sug-)Tj -7.3107 -1 TD 0.234 Tw (gested that he believed that Vice President Cheney obtained the )Tj T* 0.3 Tw (Presidents personal approval for these boundaries on interroga-)Tj T* 0.052 Tw (tions at Guantanamo? )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.07 Tw (Colonel W)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 204.9193 311 Tm 0 Tw (ILKERSON)Tj 10 0 0 10 249.0706 311 Tm 0.07 Tw (. Again, I dont know if he knew the full story )Tj -10.2071 -1 TD 0.166 Tw (at that time. I am quite sure that I didnt. And the remarks that )Tj T* 0.06 Tw (he made were offhand, and they were something more general than )Tj T* 0.124 Tw (that. They were like: You can bet that if Cheney did it, he walked )Tj T* 0.148 Tw (in the Oval Office and got the last bite at the apple before he did )Tj T* 0 Tw (it. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.14 Tw (Mr. C)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 185.0596 250.9999 Tm 0 Tw (ONYERS)Tj 10 0 0 10 220.0271 250.9999 Tm 0.14 Tw (. Did you conclude that anyone in the Office of the )Tj -7.3027 -1 TD 0.154 Tw (Vice President played a significant role in the development of Ad-)Tj T* 0.052 Tw (ministration interrogation policy? )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.062 Tw (Colonel W)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 204.8393 220.9999 Tm 0 Tw (ILKERSON)Tj 10 0 0 10 248.9906 220.9999 Tm 0.062 Tw (. It is my strong view that Mr. Addington had )Tj -10.1991 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (a very significant role in it. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.19 Tw (Mr. C)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 185.5596 200.9999 Tm 0 Tw (ONYERS)Tj 10 0 0 10 220.527 200.9999 Tm 0.19 Tw (. And was he part of what sometimes was termed )Tj -7.3527 -1 TD 0.224 Tw (an unholy alliance of the Office of the Vice President, the Sec-)Tj T* 0.174 Tw (retary, or Rumsfeld, and the Office of the Legal Counsel bringing )Tj T* 0.284 Tw (pressure to bear on the military to use aggressive interrogation )Tj T* 0 Tw (techniques? )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.206 Tw (Colonel W)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 206.2793 150.9999 Tm 0 Tw (ILKERSON)Tj 10 0 0 10 250.4306 150.9999 Tm 0.206 Tw (. I think you actually had a collusion of six )Tj -10.3431 -1 TD 0.232 Tw (people. You had John Yoo and Jay Bybee at OLC. You had Jim )Tj T* 0.434 Tw (Haynes and Doug Feith at the Defense Department and had )Tj T* 0.35 Tw (Addington in the Vice Presidents Office and Gonzales then as )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (Counsel to the President. )Tj /F6 1 Tf 6.5 0 0 6.5 25 20 Tm 1 g 0 Tw [(VerDate Aug 31 2005 )-1076.9(11:36 Feb 04, 2009)-1076.9(Jkt 000000)-1076.9(PO 00000)-1076.9(Frm 00032)-1076.9(Fmt 6633)-1076.9(Sfmt 6601)-1076.9(H:\\WORK\\CONST\\061808\\42972.000)-1076.9(HJUD1)-1076.9(PsN: 42972)]TJ ET endstream endobj 109 0 obj << /ProcSet [/PDF /Text ] /Font << /F1 4 0 R /F6 9 0 R >> /ExtGState << /GS1 10 0 R >> >> endobj 111 0 obj << /Length 5348 >> stream BT /F1 1 Tf 10 0 0 10 300.44 661 Tm 0 g /GS1 gs 0 Tc 0 Tw (29 )Tj -14.344 -2 TD 0.328 Tw (I think they all participated initially in developing this legal )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.168 Tw (opinion for a finding that the President had probably signed with )Tj T* 0.246 Tw (regard to the CIA; and it gravitated overmigrated over, if you )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (willto the Defense Department. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.054 Tw (Mr. C)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 184.1996 601 Tm 0 Tw (ONYERS)Tj 10 0 0 10 219.1671 601 Tm 0.054 Tw (. Then it would be fair to say that these tactics were )Tj -7.2167 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (essentially pushed from the top down? )Tj 1 -1 TD (Colonel W)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 204.7393 581 Tm 0 Tw (ILKERSON)Tj 10 0 0 10 248.8906 581 Tm 0.052 Tw (. That is my view. )Tj -9.1891 -1 TD 0.13 Tw (Mr. C)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 184.9596 571 Tm 0 Tw (ONYERS)Tj 10 0 0 10 219.927 571 Tm 0.13 Tw (. And that leaves us in a difficultwe are just try-)Tj -7.2927 -1 TD 0.274 Tw (ing to flesh this out, and everyone brings their opinion; but we )Tj T* 0.092 Tw (have toas an investigating Committee, have to bring this to even )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (finer detail. We may have to invite some of these persons in. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.19 Tw (As a matter of fact, some have already been invited in. And to )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (my pleasant surprise, some have agreed to come in. )Tj 1 -1 TD (So I thank you for your testimony. )Tj T* (Mr. N)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 185.1096 500.9999 Tm 0 Tw (ADLER)Tj 10 0 0 10 213.9971 500.9999 Tm 0.052 Tw (. Thank you. )Tj -5.6997 -1 TD 0.176 Tw (The gentleman from California is now recognized for 5 minutes )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (to question the witnesses. )Tj 1 -1 TD (Mr. I)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 181.0296 471 Tm 0 Tw (SSA)Tj 10 0 0 10 196.8854 471 Tm 0.052 Tw (. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. )Tj -3.9885 -1 TD 0.126 Tw (Mr. Rivkin, the question of whether someone is tortured, does it )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (hinge on whether it is effective? )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.21 Tw (Mr. R)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 185.7596 441 Tm 0 Tw (IVKIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 210.7912 441 Tm 0.21 Tw (. I do not think so. I think it is a very unfortunate )Tj -6.3791 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (observation that has been read about, the effectiveness. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.172 Tw (Mr. I)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 182.2296 421 Tm 0 Tw (SSA)Tj 10 0 0 10 198.0854 421 Tm 0.172 Tw (. So just to set the record straight, whether or not tor-)Tj -5.1085 -1 TD (ture yields vital or important information should have no bearing )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (on whether it is torture. )Tj 1 -1 TD (Even if torture is effective, it is wrong; is that right? )Tj T* 0.192 Tw (Mr. R)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 185.5796 381 Tm 0 Tw (IVKIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 210.6112 381 Tm 0.192 Tw (. That is true of torture, I would say, Congressman. )Tj -5.3611 -1 TD 0.23 Tw (I would say in the case of lesser levels of coercion, I still pre-)Tj -1 -1 TD 0.136 Tw (scribe cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment when you look at )Tj T* 0.16 Tw (what shocks the public conscience, the circumstances, the impera-)Tj T* 0.092 Tw (tive for intelligence and effectiveness. But torture to me is a pretty )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (absolute prohibition. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.118 Tw (Mr. I)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 181.6896 320.9999 Tm 0 Tw (SSA)Tj 10 0 0 10 197.5454 320.9999 Tm 0.118 Tw (. Welland, look, I served in the Army. If I knew there )Tj -5.0545 -1 TD 0.068 Tw (was an ambush a quarter of a mile ahead and I had a prisoner and )Tj T* 0.138 Tw (I had to decide whether my unit got ambushed or whether we got )Tj T* 0.142 Tw (out alive and the only way to get out was straight ahead, I might )Tj T* 0.31 Tw (ask later for forgiveness or a minimum punishment for what I )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (would do in order to get that information in a timely fashion. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.144 Tw (But that is sort of what we try to protect ourselves against, the )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.142 Tw (actions of individuals when they have complete control over some-)Tj T* 0.052 Tw (body; isnt that true? )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.086 Tw (Mr. R)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 184.5196 230.9999 Tm 0 Tw (IVKIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 209.5512 230.9999 Tm 0.086 Tw (. It is true. And you can have circumstances that, you )Tj -6.2551 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (know, bring out these types of reactions. )Tj 1 -1 TD (I certainly would not suggest legalizing it, but it is one )Tj T* (Mr. I)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 181.0296 200.9999 Tm 0 Tw (SSA)Tj 10 0 0 10 196.8854 200.9999 Tm 0.052 Tw (. Okay. )Tj -3.9885 -1 TD 0.134 Tw (Let us go to waterboarding. I know you said you didnt want to, )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.32 Tw (but waterboarding is another name for drowning with a doctor )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (present, isnt it? )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.14 Tw (Mr. R)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 185.0596 160.9999 Tm 0 Tw (IVKIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 210.0912 160.9999 Tm 0.14 Tw (. As I understand, it is a pretty capacious term. But, )Tj -6.3091 -1 TD 0.178 Tw (yes, it does involveI dont know even know if waterboarding al-)Tj T* 0.306 Tw (ways involves drowning. It may involve forms of noninundation )Tj T* 0.058 Tw (that induces some feeling of asphyxiation where, let us say, you are )Tj T* 0.298 Tw (strapped to a board and there is some kind of water that gets )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (poured over your face. It may not be drowning )Tj /F6 1 Tf 6.5 0 0 6.5 25 20 Tm 1 g 0 Tw [(VerDate Aug 31 2005 )-1076.9(11:36 Feb 04, 2009)-1076.9(Jkt 000000)-1076.9(PO 00000)-1076.9(Frm 00033)-1076.9(Fmt 6633)-1076.9(Sfmt 6601)-1076.9(H:\\WORK\\CONST\\061808\\42972.000)-1076.9(HJUD1)-1076.9(PsN: 42972)]TJ ET endstream endobj 112 0 obj << /ProcSet [/PDF /Text ] /Font << /F1 4 0 R /F6 9 0 R >> /ExtGState << /GS1 10 0 R >> >> endobj 114 0 obj << /Length 6059 >> stream BT /F1 1 Tf 10 0 0 10 300.44 661 Tm 0 g /GS1 gs 0 Tc 0 Tw (30 )Tj -14.344 -2 TD 0.112 Tw (Mr. I)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 181.6296 641 Tm 0 Tw (SSA)Tj 10 0 0 10 197.4854 641 Tm 0.112 Tw (. Take my word for it, waterboarding is either drowning )Tj -5.0485 -1 TD 0.216 Tw (the person or making him think he is going to be drowned. And )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (you said you dont think that is torture? )Tj 1 -1 TD (Mr. R)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 184.1796 611 Tm 0 Tw (IVKIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 209.2112 611 Tm 0.052 Tw (. No. On the contrary. )Tj -5.2211 -1 TD 0.43 Tw (I said, in my view in almost all conceivable circumstances, )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (waterboarding would be torture. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.184 Tw (Mr. I)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 182.3496 581 Tm 0 Tw (SSA)Tj 10 0 0 10 198.2054 581 Tm 0.184 Tw (. Okay. So this Administration, recognizing that it had )Tj -5.1205 -1 TD 0.074 Tw (a multitude of tools, including sleep deprivation and so on that had )Tj T* 0.106 Tw (a lot of history, chose to condone on three occasions the use of this )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (near-drowning technique called waterboarding, right? )Tj 1 -1 TD (Mr. R)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 184.1796 541 Tm 0 Tw (IVKIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 209.2112 541 Tm 0.052 Tw (. It appears to be the case. )Tj -5.2211 -1 TD (Mr. I)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 181.0296 530.9999 Tm 0 Tw (SSA)Tj 10 0 0 10 196.8854 530.9999 Tm 0.052 Tw (. Okay. )Tj -3.9885 -1 TD 0.194 Tw (Mr. Wilkerson, you and I both went through some of the same )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.11 Tw (training. You went through more of it. Thank you for your service. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.244 Tw (We were told about the other side torturing. Some things like )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.066 Tw (waterboarding were part of the training that we expected we would )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (be tortured by the enemy, right? )Tj 1 -1 TD (Colonel W)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 204.7393 471 Tm 0 Tw (ILKERSON)Tj 10 0 0 10 248.8906 471 Tm 0.052 Tw (. Right. )Tj -9.1891 -1 TD 0.264 Tw (Mr. I)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 183.1496 460.9999 Tm 0 Tw (SSA)Tj 10 0 0 10 199.0054 460.9999 Tm 0.264 Tw (. Okay. And when you and I went through and were )Tj -5.2005 -1 TD 0.32 Tw (commissioned as Army officers, we were told we dont do that, )Tj T* 0 Tw (right? )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (Colonel W)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 204.7393 431 Tm 0 Tw (ILKERSON)Tj 10 0 0 10 248.8906 431 Tm 0.052 Tw (. Right. )Tj -9.1891 -1 TD (Mr. I)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 181.0296 421 Tm 0 Tw (SSA)Tj 10 0 0 10 196.8854 421 Tm 0.052 Tw (. And the U.S. Army Manual says we dont do that? )Tj -3.9885 -1 TD (Colonel W)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 204.7393 411 Tm 0 Tw (ILKERSON)Tj 10 0 0 10 248.8906 411 Tm 0.052 Tw (. Right. )Tj -9.1891 -1 TD 0.082 Tw (Mr. I)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 181.3296 401 Tm 0 Tw (SSA)Tj 10 0 0 10 197.1854 401 Tm 0.082 Tw (. If I watched MASH, the CIA guys would go in and out, )Tj -5.0185 -1 TD 0.15 Tw (and we would assume they would have different standards, right? )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (Colonel W)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 204.7393 381 Tm 0 Tw (ILKERSON)Tj 10 0 0 10 248.8906 381 Tm 0.052 Tw (. Probably, knowing the CIAs history. )Tj -9.1891 -1 TD 0.182 Tw (Mr. I)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 182.3296 371 Tm 0 Tw (SSA)Tj 10 0 0 10 198.1854 371 Tm 0.182 Tw (. And those standards would be, in fact, secrets, right? )Tj -4.1185 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (Colonel W)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 204.7393 360.9999 Tm 0 Tw (ILKERSON)Tj 10 0 0 10 248.8906 360.9999 Tm 0.052 Tw (. Yes. )Tj -9.1891 -1 TD (Mr. I)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 181.0296 350.9999 Tm 0 Tw (SSA)Tj 10 0 0 10 196.8854 350.9999 Tm 0.052 Tw (. And )Tj -3.9885 -1 TD (Colonel W)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 204.7393 341 Tm 0 Tw (ILKERSON)Tj 10 0 0 10 248.8906 341 Tm 0.052 Tw (. Usually very highly classified. )Tj -9.1891 -1 TD 0.18 Tw (Mr. I)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 182.3096 330.9999 Tm 0 Tw (SSA)Tj 10 0 0 10 198.1654 330.9999 Tm 0.18 Tw (. And so the use of waterboarding and, if you will, the )Tj -5.1165 -1 TD 0.214 Tw (whole handling of how we dealt with a number of incidents, has )Tj T* 0.18 Tw (created a situation in which the CIAs techniques are at least for )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (now public, right? )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.156 Tw (Colonel W)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 205.7793 290.9999 Tm 0 Tw (ILKERSON)Tj 10 0 0 10 249.9306 290.9999 Tm 0.156 Tw (. At least to that extent, yes, waterboarding. )Tj -9.2931 -1 TD 0.078 Tw (Mr. I)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 181.2896 280.9999 Tm 0 Tw (SSA)Tj 10 0 0 10 197.1454 280.9999 Tm 0.078 Tw (. I dont condone torture. When I was on the Intelligence )Tj -5.0145 -1 TD 0.196 Tw (Committee and was told of what waterboarding was before it be-)Tj T* 0.08 Tw (came, quote, unclassified, I thought it was wrong, just as Senator )Tj T* 0.12 Tw (McCain thought. And I will tell you today I still think it is wrong. )Tj T* 0.13 Tw (And I think that, in fact, this hearing is valuable because, in fact, )Tj T* 0.146 Tw (it hasit causes us to reflect on whether or not going too far cre-)Tj T* 0.134 Tw (ates a situation in which the legitimate effectiveness of our Secret )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (Service is compromised. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.132 Tw (I want to just follow up with one question, though, because I do )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.076 Tw (have to hold you to a high standard, too. You used the term Article )Tj T* 0.072 Tw (15 when you were talking about punishment. I think you said Arti-)Tj T* 0.052 Tw (cle 15 like punishment. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.224 Tw (You are not implying that anyone gets nonjudicial punishment )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (for killing somebody? )Tj 1 -1 TD (Colonel W)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 204.7393 140.9999 Tm 0 Tw (ILKERSON)Tj 10 0 0 10 248.8906 140.9999 Tm 0.052 Tw (. No, no, no. )Tj -9.1891 -1 TD 0.168 Tw (Mr. I)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 182.1896 130.9999 Tm 0 Tw (SSA)Tj 10 0 0 10 198.0454 130.9999 Tm 0.168 Tw (. And just for the record, the commanding general who )Tj -5.1045 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (was in charge of Abu Ghraib, where is she today? )Tj 1 -1 TD (Colonel W)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 204.7393 110.9999 Tm 0 Tw (ILKERSON)Tj 10 0 0 10 248.8906 110.9999 Tm 0.052 Tw (. I dont know. )Tj /F6 1 Tf 6.5 0 0 6.5 25 20 Tm 1 g 0 Tw [(VerDate Aug 31 2005 )-1076.9(11:36 Feb 04, 2009)-1076.9(Jkt 000000)-1076.9(PO 00000)-1076.9(Frm 00034)-1076.9(Fmt 6633)-1076.9(Sfmt 6601)-1076.9(H:\\WORK\\CONST\\061808\\42972.000)-1076.9(HJUD1)-1076.9(PsN: 42972)]TJ ET endstream endobj 115 0 obj << /ProcSet [/PDF /Text ] /Font << /F1 4 0 R /F6 9 0 R >> /ExtGState << /GS1 10 0 R >> >> endobj 117 0 obj << /Length 2572 >> stream BT /F1 1 Tf 10 0 0 10 300.44 661 Tm 0 g /GS1 gs 0 Tc 0 Tw (31 )Tj -14.344 -2 TD 0.052 Tw (Mr. I)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 181.0296 641 Tm 0 Tw (SSA)Tj 10 0 0 10 196.8854 641 Tm 0.052 Tw (. Wasnt she court-martialed? )Tj -3.9885 -1.04 TD 0.226 Tw (Colonel W)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 206.4793 630.6 Tm 0 Tw (ILKERSON)Tj 10 0 0 10 250.6306 630.6 Tm 0.226 Tw (. I dont know if she was court-martialed. I )Tj -10.3631 -1.04 TD 0.052 Tw (know she wasat least I believe she was reduced in rank. )Tj 1 -1.04 TD 0.38 Tw (Mr. I)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 184.3096 609.8 Tm 0 Tw (SSA)Tj 10 0 0 10 200.1654 609.8 Tm 0.38 Tw (. I know she was reduced to colonel. I apologize. I )Tj -5.3165 -1.04 TD 0.098 Tw (thought she was. And in the case of the murder that you alleged )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (or not alleged, but you referencedpronounce it correctly. Dilawon? )Tj 1 -1.04 TD (Colonel W)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 204.7393 578.6001 Tm 0 Tw (ILKERSON)Tj 10 0 0 10 248.8906 578.6001 Tm 0.052 Tw (. Dilawar. )Tj -9.1891 -1.04 TD (Mr. I)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 181.0296 568.2001 Tm 0 Tw (SSA)Tj 10 0 0 10 196.8854 568.2001 Tm 0.052 Tw (. Dilawar. )Tj -3.9885 -1.04 TD 0.182 Tw (What was the punishment that was issued there in the case of )Tj -1 -1.04 TD 0.052 Tw (that murder? )Tj 1 -1.04 TD 0.176 Tw (Colonel W)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 205.9793 537.0001 Tm 0 Tw (ILKERSON)Tj 10 0 0 10 250.1306 537.0001 Tm 0.176 Tw (. I would actually have to go back and look, )Tj -10.3131 -1.04 TD 0.214 Tw (but I dont recall its being the kind of thing you would say, just )Tj T* 0.122 Tw (as a citizen or a soldier that it was commensurate with what hap-)Tj T* 0 Tw (pened. )Tj 1 -1.04 TD 0.234 Tw (Mr. I)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 182.8496 495.4001 Tm 0 Tw (SSA)Tj 10 0 0 10 198.7054 495.4001 Tm 0.234 Tw (. Mr. Chairman, I would ask, are those records some-)Tj -5.1705 -1.04 TD 0.052 Tw (thing that could be made available to this Committee? )Tj 1 -1.04 TD (Colonel W)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 204.7393 474.6001 Tm 0 Tw (ILKERSON)Tj 10 0 0 10 248.8906 474.6001 Tm 0.052 Tw (. They should be, yes. )Tj -9.1891 -1.04 TD 0.12 Tw (Mr. I)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 181.7096 464.2001 Tm 0 Tw (SSA)Tj 10 0 0 10 197.5654 464.2001 Tm 0.12 Tw (. I would appreciate it if you could follow up with us on )Tj -5.0565 -1.04 TD 0.052 Tw (that. And thank you. )Tj 1 -1.04 TD (I yield back. )Tj T* ([The information referred to follows:] )Tj /F6 1 Tf 6.5 0 0 6.5 25 20 Tm 1 g 0 Tw [(VerDate Aug 31 2005 )-1076.9(11:36 Feb 04, 2009)-1076.9(Jkt 000000)-1076.9(PO 00000)-1076.9(Frm 00035)-1076.9(Fmt 6633)-1076.9(Sfmt 6601)-1076.9(H:\\WORK\\CONST\\061808\\42972.000)-1076.9(HJUD1)-1076.9(PsN: 42972)]TJ ET endstream endobj 118 0 obj << /ProcSet [/PDF /Text ] /Font << /F1 4 0 R /F6 9 0 R >> /ExtGState << /GS1 10 0 R >> >> endobj 122 0 obj << /Length 407 >> stream BT /F1 1 Tf 10 0 0 10 300.44 661 Tm 0 g /GS1 gs 0 Tc 0 Tw (32 )Tj ET q 317.04 0 0 496.0799 147.5 149 cm /Im1 Do Q BT /F6 1 Tf 6.5 0 0 6.5 25 20 Tm 1 g [(VerDate Aug 31 2005 )-1076.9(11:36 Feb 04, 2009)-1076.9(Jkt 000000)-1076.9(PO 00000)-1076.9(Frm 00036)-1076.9(Fmt 6633)-1076.9(Sfmt 6601)-1076.9(H:\\WORK\\CONST\\061808\\42972.000)-1076.9(HJUD1)-1076.9(PsN: 42972)]TJ 0 4 -4 0 593.9999 18 Tm (A.eps)Tj ET endstream endobj 123 0 obj << /ProcSet [/PDF /Text /ImageB ] /Font << /F1 4 0 R /F6 9 0 R >> /XObject << /Im1 120 0 R >> /ExtGState << /GS1 10 0 R >> >> endobj 125 0 obj << /Length 5508 >> stream BT /F1 1 Tf 10 0 0 10 300.44 661 Tm 0 g /GS1 gs 0 Tc 0 Tw (33 )Tj -14.344 -2 TD 0.052 Tw (Mr. N)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 185.1096 641 Tm 0 Tw (ADLER)Tj 10 0 0 10 213.9971 641 Tm 0.052 Tw (. I thank the gentleman. )Tj -5.6997 -1 TD (The gentleman from Alabama is recognized for 5 minutes. )Tj T* (Mr. D)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 184.7396 621 Tm 0 Tw (AVIS)Tj 10 0 0 10 204.5873 621 Tm 0.052 Tw (. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. )Tj -4.7587 -1 TD (Gentlemen, welcome to the Committee. )Tj T* 0.236 Tw (Mr. Levin, let me begin with you and Mr. Wilkerson, and put )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.086 Tw (frankly everything I have heard today in some context. And I want )Tj T* 0.068 Tw (to pull out two particular events. The first one is the circumstances )Tj T* 0.204 Tw (of your not being at the Department. I know that you were very )Tj T* 0.252 Tw (careful in your answers to Chairman Nadler earlier. But let me )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (make sure I understand you. )Tj 1 -1 TD (You didnt voluntarily leave the Department; is that correct? )Tj T* 0.106 Tw (Mr. L)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 184.1696 530.9999 Tm 0 Tw (EVIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 205.4973 530.9999 Tm 0.106 Tw (. I would have preferred to have stayed. I mean, when )Tj -5.8497 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (I was told I wasnt going to stay, I voluntarily left. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.088 Tw (Mr. D)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 185.0996 510.9999 Tm 0 Tw (AVIS)Tj 10 0 0 10 204.9473 510.9999 Tm 0.088 Tw (. That tends to be what happens; when people who are )Tj -5.7947 -1 TD 0.18 Tw (over you tell you to go, you go. That is what in the real world is )Tj T* 0.1 Tw (called being fired. And as to the reasons, I think Chairman Nadler )Tj T* 0.068 Tw (asked you if the reason had something to do with opinions that you )Tj T* 0.086 Tw (issued regarding torture. And you indicated that you didnt wish to )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (wade into that. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.11 Tw (Let me use a little bit of common sense for a moment. Was your )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (performance deficient in any way that you knew of, Mr. Levin? )Tj 1 -1 TD (Mr. L)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 183.6296 431 Tm 0 Tw (EVIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 204.9573 431 Tm 0.052 Tw (. Not that I was aware of. )Tj -4.7957 -1 TD 0.134 Tw (Mr. D)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 185.5596 421 Tm 0 Tw (AVIS)Tj 10 0 0 10 205.4073 421 Tm 0.134 Tw (. Your task of assembling scholarly, reasoned opinions )Tj -5.8407 -1 TD 0.244 Tw (for the Department of Justice, did you fail in any way that you )Tj T* 0.184 Tw (knew of in preparing scholarly, reasoned opinions for the Depart-)Tj T* 0.052 Tw (ment of Justice? )Tj 1 -1 TD (Mr. L)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 183.6296 381 Tm 0 Tw (EVIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 204.9573 381 Tm 0.052 Tw (. I hope I did not fail. I dont believe I did. )Tj -4.7957 -1 TD 0.084 Tw (Mr. D)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 185.0596 371 Tm 0 Tw (AVIS)Tj 10 0 0 10 204.9073 371 Tm 0.084 Tw (. Had you received any mark in your files or any nega-)Tj -5.7907 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (tive evaluation regarding the competence of your performance? )Tj 1 -1 TD (Mr. L)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 183.6296 350.9999 Tm 0 Tw (EVIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 204.9573 350.9999 Tm 0.052 Tw (. No. )Tj -4.7957 -1 TD 0.068 Tw (Mr. D)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 184.8996 341 Tm 0 Tw (AVIS)Tj 10 0 0 10 204.7473 341 Tm 0.068 Tw (. Did anyone give you any reason for your termination? )Tj -4.7747 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (Mr. L)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 183.6296 330.9999 Tm 0 Tw (EVIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 204.9573 330.9999 Tm 0.052 Tw (. No. )Tj -4.7957 -1 TD 0.102 Tw (Mr. D)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 185.2396 320.9999 Tm 0 Tw (AVIS)Tj 10 0 0 10 205.0873 320.9999 Tm 0.102 Tw (. So, Mr. Levin, a lot of us listening to that would rea-)Tj -5.8087 -1 TD 0.108 Tw (sonably conclude, using our common sense, that you were asked to )Tj T* 0.294 Tw (go because you were at odds with the Administrations policies, )Tj T* 0.14 Tw (which would put you in the same category with General Shinseki, )Tj T* 0.208 Tw (who was the first person to correctly tell the United States Con-)Tj T* 0.134 Tw (gress that the war in Iraq would not be a limited-term adventure, )Tj T* 0.118 Tw (but would require a significant commitment of forces. He was can-)Tj T* 0.072 Tw (did in telling the Congress that before the war, was asked to go on. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.066 Tw (Mr. Wilkerson, do you recall that your former boss, General Pow-)Tj -1 -1 TD 0.11 Tw (ell, frankly indicated his willingness to the Bush administration to )Tj T* 0.166 Tw (remain for a second term? He was not given a chance to re-up, if )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (you will. And I think there is a pattern here, gentlemen. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.136 Tw (A lot of the people who got it right have been asked to leave by )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.162 Tw (this Administration, whereas a lot of the people who got it wrong )Tj T* 0.164 Tw (have never been asked to leave and have formulated policies that )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (have taken us to places we dont want to go. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.204 Tw (The second context, Mr. Levin, is this one. I am trying to look )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.07 Tw (at this Administrations capacity for legal analysis, and I am trying )Tj T* 0.156 Tw (to put this in some perspective. Lets go through it for a moment. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.272 Tw (This Administration initially believed that there was an extra )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.078 Tw (constitutional authority for the President to supersede FISA. While )Tj T* 0.1 Tw (no court has ever squarely addressed that issue, I dont even know )Tj /F6 1 Tf 6.5 0 0 6.5 25 20 Tm 1 g 0 Tw [(VerDate Aug 31 2005 )-1076.9(11:36 Feb 04, 2009)-1076.9(Jkt 000000)-1076.9(PO 00000)-1076.9(Frm 00037)-1076.9(Fmt 6633)-1076.9(Sfmt 6601)-1076.9(H:\\WORK\\CONST\\061808\\42972.000)-1076.9(HJUD1)-1076.9(PsN: 42972)]TJ ET endstream endobj 126 0 obj << /ProcSet [/PDF /Text ] /Font << /F1 4 0 R /F6 9 0 R >> /ExtGState << /GS1 10 0 R >> >> endobj 128 0 obj << /Length 5550 >> stream BT /F1 1 Tf 10 0 0 10 300.44 661 Tm 0 g /GS1 gs 0 Tc 0 Tw (34 )Tj -15.344 -2 TD 0.186 Tw (of a senior Republican in Congress who holds that opinion today. )Tj 0 -1 TD 0.128 Tw (That is an opinion that has been widely ridiculed. That is why we )Tj T* 0.138 Tw (have had subsequent acts that amend FISA and why we have the )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (Protect America Act now. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.42 Tw (The Administration initially believed the Geneva Convention )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.388 Tw (wasnt applicable to treatment of detainees. That position was )Tj T* 0.25 Tw (squarely rejected by the Supreme Court. The Administration be-)Tj T* 0.188 Tw (lieved that habeas corpus wasnt applicable to detainees. The Su-)Tj T* 0.052 Tw (preme Court rejected that position last week. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.086 Tw (Mr. Levin, Mr. Wilkerson, do either of you know of any Adminis-)Tj -1 -1 TD 0.07 Tw (tration that has so consistently found itself at odds with courts and )Tj T* 0.642 Tw (mainstream opinion regarding the scope of its power? Mr. )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (Wilkerson, does any come to mind? )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.126 Tw (Colonel W)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 205.4793 510.9999 Tm 0 Tw (ILKERSON)Tj 10 0 0 10 249.6306 510.9999 Tm 0.126 Tw (. Well, there have been a few. I mean, Presi-)Tj -10.2631 -1 TD 0.194 Tw (dent Truman certainly had a real problem when he tried to take )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (on the steel industry. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.37 Tw (Mr. D)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 187.9196 480.9999 Tm 0 Tw (AVIS)Tj 10 0 0 10 207.7673 480.9999 Tm 0.37 Tw (. He had one-timethis Administration has had a )Tj -6.0767 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (number. There is a pervasiveness to it. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.264 Tw (Colonel W)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 206.8593 460.9999 Tm 0 Tw (ILKERSON)Tj 10 0 0 10 251.0106 460.9999 Tm 0.264 Tw (. I dont disagree with you. I think history )Tj -10.4011 -1 TD 0.152 Tw (isand I was part of this Administration for 4 years. I think his-)Tj T* 0.06 Tw (tory is probably going to judge this as one of the most inept Admin-)Tj T* 0.052 Tw (istrations in American history. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.066 Tw (Mr. D)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 184.8796 421 Tm 0 Tw (AVIS)Tj 10 0 0 10 204.7273 421 Tm 0.066 Tw (. Mr. Levin, would you speak to that? You are a knowl-)Tj -5.7727 -1 TD 0.19 Tw (edgeable, trained, constitutional scholar. Do you know of any Ad-)Tj T* 0.062 Tw (ministration that has so consistently advanced positions that are at )Tj T* 0.134 Tw (odds with mainstream legal/judicial opinion regarding the scope of )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (its power? )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.054 Tw (Mr. L)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 183.6496 371 Tm 0 Tw (EVIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 204.9773 371 Tm 0.054 Tw (. I dont. And I cant claim to have exhaustively studied )Tj -5.7977 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (the issue. )Tj 1 -1 TD (Mr. D)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 184.7396 350.9999 Tm 0 Tw (AVIS)Tj 10 0 0 10 204.5873 350.9999 Tm 0.052 Tw (. But none come mind? )Tj -4.7587 -1 TD (Mr. L)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 183.6296 341 Tm 0 Tw (EVIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 204.9573 341 Tm 0.052 Tw (. But I dont. )Tj -4.7957 -1 TD 0.446 Tw (Mr. D)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 188.6796 330.9999 Tm 0 Tw (AVIS)Tj 10 0 0 10 208.5273 330.9999 Tm 0.446 Tw (. Final observation in the time that I have: Mr. )Tj -6.1527 -1 TD 0.066 Tw (Wilkerson, would you please end thisactually, Mr. Levin, frankly, )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (you would be the better person to pose this. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.12 Tw (Every now and then we have these hearings. It is usually some-)Tj -1 -1 TD 0.162 Tw (one to my left, the Committees right, who will advance the argu-)Tj T* 0.21 Tw (ment that, well, all of these liberal Democrats are worried about )Tj T* 0.064 Tw (torture and all these liberal Democrats are worried about our being )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (too tough and too mean on these bad guys around the world. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.16 Tw (Will you, Mr. Levin, conclusively disabuse us of the idea, if you )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (oppose torture, you are sympathetic to al Qaeda? )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.124 Tw (Mr. L)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 184.3496 230.9999 Tm 0 Tw (EVIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 205.6773 230.9999 Tm 0.124 Tw (. Yes. Torture is obviously abhorrent and against any-)Tj -5.8677 -1 TD 0.136 Tw (thing that this country stands for. I dont know anybody who sup-)Tj T* 0.052 Tw (ports torture orin the Government who )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.228 Tw (Mr. D)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 186.4996 200.9999 Tm 0 Tw (AVIS)Tj 10 0 0 10 206.3473 200.9999 Tm 0.228 Tw (. Mr. Wilkerson, will you, as my time runs out, just )Tj -5.9347 -1 TD 0.078 Tw (speak to that idea and disabuse us once and for all of the idea that )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (if you oppose torture that you are sympathetic to al Qaeda? )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.268 Tw (Colonel W)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 206.8993 171 Tm 0 Tw (ILKERSON)Tj 10 0 0 10 251.0506 171 Tm 0.268 Tw (. I think it is nonsense. I think it is right )Tj -10.4051 -1 TD 0.168 Tw (there with dissent is in some way cowardly or something. I think )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (dissent is the highest form of patriotism. )Tj 1 -1 TD (Mr. D)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 184.7396 140.9999 Tm 0 Tw (AVIS)Tj 10 0 0 10 204.5873 140.9999 Tm 0.052 Tw (. Thank you, gentlemen. )Tj -4.7587 -1 TD (Mr. N)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 185.1096 130.9999 Tm 0 Tw (ADLER)Tj 10 0 0 10 213.9971 130.9999 Tm 0.052 Tw (. Thank you. )Tj -5.6997 -1 TD (I now recognize for 5 minutes the gentleman from Ohio. )Tj T* (Mr. K)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 184.7396 110.9999 Tm 0 Tw (ING)Tj 10 0 0 10 200.7393 110.9999 Tm 0.052 Tw (. Or Iowa. And I appreciate that. )Tj /F6 1 Tf 6.5 0 0 6.5 25 20 Tm 1 g 0 Tw [(VerDate Aug 31 2005 )-1076.9(11:36 Feb 04, 2009)-1076.9(Jkt 000000)-1076.9(PO 00000)-1076.9(Frm 00038)-1076.9(Fmt 6633)-1076.9(Sfmt 6601)-1076.9(H:\\WORK\\CONST\\061808\\42972.000)-1076.9(HJUD1)-1076.9(PsN: 42972)]TJ ET endstream endobj 129 0 obj << /ProcSet [/PDF /Text ] /Font << /F1 4 0 R /F6 9 0 R >> /ExtGState << /GS1 10 0 R >> >> endobj 131 0 obj << /Length 5429 >> stream BT /F1 1 Tf 10 0 0 10 300.44 661 Tm 0 g /GS1 gs 0 Tc 0 Tw (35 )Tj -14.344 -2 TD 0.084 Tw (Mr. N)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 185.4296 641 Tm 0 Tw (ADLER)Tj 10 0 0 10 214.3171 641 Tm 0.084 Tw (. Sorry, from Iowa. One of those Midwest States that )Tj -6.7317 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (are flat, you know. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.202 Tw (Mr. K)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 186.2396 621 Tm 0 Tw (ING)Tj 10 0 0 10 202.2393 621 Tm 0.202 Tw (. We are the one under water, and I happen to beI )Tj -5.5239 -1 TD 0.288 Tw (also wanted to point out, Mr. Chairmanand to the gentleman )Tj T* 0.284 Tw (from Alabama, I am not to your left, regardless of the logistics )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (here, but thank you. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.18 Tw (Mr. D)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 186.0196 581 Tm 0 Tw (AVIS)Tj 10 0 0 10 205.8673 581 Tm 0.18 Tw (. That is why I said my left, the Committees right )Tj -5.8867 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (my physical left, the Committees right. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.102 Tw (Mr. K)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 185.2396 561 Tm 0 Tw (ING)Tj 10 0 0 10 201.2393 561 Tm 0.102 Tw (. You are an attorney, and I do appreciate the accuracy )Tj -5.4239 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (of your original statement. I couldnt resist commenting. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.212 Tw (I would like to turn first to Mr. Levin and the discussion that )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.056 Tw (was brought up by Mr. Davis of Alabama with regard to the habeas )Tj T* 0.138 Tw (case that we heard the decision on last week. I call it the GITMO )Tj T* 0.15 Tw (case. And I would ask you as a constitutional scholar if you could )Tj T* 0.072 Tw (advise this Constitution Subcommittee how Congress might enforce )Tj T* 0.084 Tw (Article 3, Section 2, whenever we might decide to pass that legisla-)Tj T* 0.124 Tw (tion which in those cases are legion, how do we enforce that when )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (the court defies the directive of Congress? )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.176 Tw (Mr. L)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 184.8696 460.9999 Tm 0 Tw (EVIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 206.1973 460.9999 Tm 0.176 Tw (. I would have to study that a lot more closely, sir. I )Tj -5.9197 -1 TD 0.172 Tw (am sorry. It is just not something I am prepared to address now. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (I understand )Tj T* (Mr. N)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 185.1096 431 Tm 0 Tw (ADLER)Tj 10 0 0 10 213.9971 431 Tm 0.052 Tw (. Would the gentleman yield for a second? )Tj -5.6997 -1 TD (Mr. K)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 184.7396 421 Tm 0 Tw (ING)Tj 10 0 0 10 200.7393 421 Tm 0.052 Tw (. I would. )Tj -4.3739 -1 TD 0.236 Tw (Mr. N)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 186.9496 411 Tm 0 Tw (ADLER)Tj 10 0 0 10 215.8371 411 Tm 0.236 Tw (. When you are asking a question about Article 3, )Tj -6.8837 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (Section 2, could you simply mention what article that is? )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.076 Tw (Mr. K)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 184.9796 391 Tm 0 Tw (ING)Tj 10 0 0 10 200.9793 391 Tm 0.076 Tw (. I would be happy to. And reclaiming my time, it is the )Tj -5.3979 -1 TD 0.27 Tw (section of the Constitution that grants to the legislature, to the )Tj T* 0.06 Tw (Congress the authority to strip the court of jurisdiction to hear par-)Tj T* 0.136 Tw (ticular cases under such conditions as the Congress shall set. And )Tj T* 0.15 Tw (we have done so in a series of cases that have to do with the De-)Tj T* 0.194 Tw (tainee Treatment Act and the Hamdan decision and the list goes )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (on, setting up a military tribunal. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.19 Tw (Soand we directed the appeals to be exclusive within the au-)Tj -1 -1 TD 0.208 Tw (thority of the D.C. Circuit CourtCourt of Appeals. And the Su-)Tj T* 0.138 Tw (preme Court chose to hear a couple of these cases, maybe more of )Tj T* 0.086 Tw (them. The Congress sits here now, having danced at the end of the )Tj T* 0.096 Tw (Supreme Courts string. We tried to accommodate them; we passed )Tj T* 0.148 Tw (legislation on two occasions to do that. And now they have moved )Tj T* 0.17 Tw (the ball, so to speak, and Lucy has pulled the football away from )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (the Charlie Brown Congress. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.264 Tw (Now that I have expressed myself on that, would you care to )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (comment, Mr. Levin? )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.088 Tw (Mr. L)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 183.9896 220.9999 Tm 0 Tw (EVIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 205.3173 220.9999 Tm 0.088 Tw (. Again, I would have to study it more closely. I do un-)Tj -5.8317 -1 TD 0.144 Tw (derstand that thein general, the Court has taken a very restric-)Tj T* 0.094 Tw (tive approach toward legislation that attempts to limit jurisdiction. )Tj T* 0.106 Tw (In this particular case, I actually thought that they concluded that )Tj T* 0.274 Tw (Congress had stripped statutory jurisdiction, but that there was )Tj T* 0.122 Tw (still a constitutional level or constitutional basis for habeas corpus )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (that Congress could not remove. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.116 Tw (Mr. K)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 185.3796 150.9999 Tm 0 Tw (ING)Tj 10 0 0 10 201.3793 150.9999 Tm 0.116 Tw (. That may well be their conclusion, which I would dis-)Tj -5.4379 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (agree with, Mr. Levin. But I think it is an astute observation. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.094 Tw (And I turn to another astute attorney, Mr. Rivkin, and ask what )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.066 Tw (your comment might be about how Congress can restrain an oligar-)Tj T* 0.252 Tw (chical court that seems to have been movingchangingmoving )Tj /F6 1 Tf 6.5 0 0 6.5 25 20 Tm 1 g 0 Tw [(VerDate Aug 31 2005 )-1076.9(11:36 Feb 04, 2009)-1076.9(Jkt 000000)-1076.9(PO 00000)-1076.9(Frm 00039)-1076.9(Fmt 6633)-1076.9(Sfmt 6601)-1076.9(H:\\WORK\\CONST\\061808\\42972.000)-1076.9(HJUD1)-1076.9(PsN: 42972)]TJ ET endstream endobj 132 0 obj << /ProcSet [/PDF /Text ] /Font << /F1 4 0 R /F6 9 0 R >> /ExtGState << /GS1 10 0 R >> >> endobj 134 0 obj << /Length 5100 >> stream BT /F1 1 Tf 10 0 0 10 300.44 661 Tm 0 g /GS1 gs 0 Tc 0 Tw (36 )Tj -15.344 -2 TD 0.114 Tw (the ball on us, so to speak. And how do we enforce that, and what )Tj 0 -1.02 TD 0.052 Tw (is the bottom line on this? )Tj 1 -1.02 TD 0.124 Tw (If we keep trying to catch up with the Supreme Court, they will )Tj -1 -1.02 TD 0.21 Tw (become the people that run this country, rather than the people. )Tj 1 -1.02 TD 0.458 Tw (Mr. R)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 188.2396 600.2 Tm 0 Tw (IVKIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 213.2712 600.2 Tm 0.458 Tw (. There is tremendous uncertainty. I cannot say )Tj -6.6271 -1.02 TD 0.208 Tw (enough critical things about this opinion. I think it is one of the )Tj T* 0.064 Tw (two or three worst opinions in Court historyFoley and Barr, Dred )Tj T* 0.07 Tw (Scott and Plessynot because of its implications, but because of its )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (overarching constitutional arrogance. )Tj 1 -1.02 TD 0.146 Tw (And this opinion, with all due respect to Congressman Davis, is )Tj -1 -1.02 TD 0.068 Tw (not a poke at the Bush administration. It is a poke at both political )Tj T* 0.2 Tw (branches, all of you, where the Court basically, leaving aside the )Tj T* 0.214 Tw (question of whether or not the Constitution applies overseas and )Tj T* 0.124 Tw (leave the Constitution habeas overseas. They have taken a look at )Tj T* 0.404 Tw (perfectly adequate procedures. There is a whole line of cases, )Tj /F7 1 Tf T* 0.166 Tw (Swain v. Pressley, INS v. St. Cyr, )Tj /F1 1 Tf 16.7928 0 TD (which deals with so-called ade-)Tj -16.7928 -1.02 TD 0.054 Tw (quate substitutes. And the majority opinion written by Justice Ken-)Tj T* 0.052 Tw (nedy just blew right past those cases, very cursory matters. )Tj 1 -1.02 TD 0.114 Tw (My honest opinion is, there is absolutely no certainty, if you ask )Tj -1 -1.02 TD 0.204 Tw (me to draft legislation, that anything you would pass that would )Tj T* 0.156 Tw (deviate in the slightest from the baseline Federal habeas, codified )Tj T* 0.164 Tw (at section 2241, would pass their muster. I dont know, if you de-)Tj T* 0.118 Tw (cided to anoint one district court in the District of Columbia as an )Tj T* 0.14 Tw (exclusive repository for all habeas petitions if nothing else. I dont )Tj T* 0.146 Tw (know if that would pass muster because this is an opinion that is )Tj T* 0.246 Tw (utterly willful, inconsistent with precedent and inconsistent with )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (the Constitution. )Tj 1 -1.02 TD (So you need to see what they will say next time. )Tj T* 0.166 Tw (Mr. K)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 185.8796 355.4 Tm 0 Tw (ING)Tj 10 0 0 10 201.8793 355.4 Tm 0.166 Tw (. And, Mr. Rivkin, I would submit that there is prece-)Tj -5.4879 -1.02 TD 0.248 Tw (dent for Congress abolishing judicial districts. And whatever the )Tj T* 0.088 Tw (Congress gives, we can take away, at least constitutionally; and all )Tj T* 0.076 Tw (of the Federal courts, with the exception of the Supreme Court, are )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (the creation of Congress. )Tj 1 -1.02 TD 0.166 Tw (And so we do have the authority; we do not have the will. And )Tj -1 -1.02 TD 0.052 Tw (the bottom-line: We dont have the will. )Tj 1 -1.02 TD 0.224 Tw (Mr. R)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 185.8996 284 Tm 0 Tw (IVKIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 210.9312 284 Tm 0.224 Tw (. It is funny you say that. I was speaking to a col-)Tj -6.3931 -1.02 TD 0.138 Tw (league of mine, and he remarked upon the fact that, theoretically, )Tj T* 0.114 Tw (you are absolutely right, you have a power to abolish all the lower )Tj T* 0 Tw (courts. )Tj 1 -1.02 TD 0.13 Tw (But I am not sure, under the logic of Justice Kennedys opinion, )Tj -1 -1.02 TD 0.088 Tw (you can do that because that would impermissibly impede the abil-)Tj T* 0.124 Tw (ity of detainees to bring the habeas petition. So maybe you cannot )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (do that either anymore. )Tj 1 -1.02 TD 0.21 Tw (Mr. K)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 186.3196 202.4 Tm 0 Tw (ING)Tj 10 0 0 10 202.3193 202.4 Tm 0.21 Tw (. So perhaps we can reduce the Supreme Court down )Tj -5.5319 -1.02 TD 0.13 Tw (to Chief Justice Roberts with his own card table and his own can-)Tj T* 0.052 Tw (dle, and they might get the message. )Tj 1 -1.02 TD 0.136 Tw (I thank you, Mr. Rivkin. I appreciate your testimony and every-)Tj -1 -1.02 TD 0.052 Tw (one elses. )Tj 1 -1.02 TD (Mr. Chairman, I yield back the balance of my time. )Tj 0 -1.01 TD (Mr. N)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 185.1096 141.2999 Tm 0 Tw (ADLER)Tj 10 0 0 10 213.9971 141.2999 Tm 0.052 Tw (. Thank the gentleman. )Tj -5.6997 -1.01 TD (And I recognize the distinguished gentlewoman from Florida. )Tj T* 0.362 Tw (Ms. W)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 190.0595 121.0999 Tm 0 Tw (ASSERMAN)Tj 10 0 0 10 243.7148 121.0999 Tm (S)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 250.0147 121.0999 Tm (CHULTZ)Tj 10 0 0 10 284.5342 121.0999 Tm 0.362 Tw (. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I )Tj -13.7534 -1.01 TD 0.206 Tw (might note for Mr. King that of the five Justices in the majority )Tj /F6 1 Tf 6.5 0 0 6.5 25 20 Tm 1 g 0 Tw [(VerDate Aug 31 2005 )-1076.9(11:36 Feb 04, 2009)-1076.9(Jkt 000000)-1076.9(PO 00000)-1076.9(Frm 00040)-1076.9(Fmt 6633)-1076.9(Sfmt 6601)-1076.9(H:\\WORK\\CONST\\061808\\42972.000)-1076.9(HJUD1)-1076.9(PsN: 42972)]TJ ET endstream endobj 135 0 obj << /ProcSet [/PDF /Text ] /Font << /F1 4 0 R /F6 9 0 R /F7 15 0 R >> /ExtGState << /GS1 10 0 R >> >> endobj 137 0 obj << /Length 5054 >> stream BT /F1 1 Tf 10 0 0 10 300.44 661 Tm 0 g /GS1 gs 0 Tc 0 Tw (37 )Tj -15.344 -2 TD 0.084 Tw (in last weeks opinion, three of them were appointed by Republican )Tj 0 -1 TD 0 Tw (Presidents. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.102 Tw (Mr. Wilkerson, I would like to ask you a couple of questions just )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.274 Tw (about someif you can comment on some things that you have )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (said recently for clarification. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.078 Tw (Recently you were quoted as stating, Haynes, Feith, Yoo, Bybee, )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.06 Tw (Gonzales andat the apexAddington, should never travel outside )Tj T* 0.174 Tw (the U.S. You continued, They broke the law; they violated their )Tj T* 0.27 Tw (professional ethical code. In future, some government may build )Tj T* 0.196 Tw (the case necessary to prosecute them in a foreign court, or in an )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (international court. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.094 Tw (Why do you describe Mr. Addington as at the apex of this group, )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (and what prompted you to make that statement? )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.134 Tw (Colonel W)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 205.5593 510.9999 Tm 0 Tw (ILKERSON)Tj 10 0 0 10 249.7106 510.9999 Tm 0.134 Tw (. Because it is my view that Mr. Addingtons )Tj -10.2711 -1 TD 0.182 Tw (very astute brain was integral to the development of not just the )Tj T* 0.1 Tw (legal position to back the CIAs findings program, but also to back, )Tj T* 0.074 Tw (ultimately, the program that DOD generated for the Armed Forces. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.262 Tw (Ms. W)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 189.0595 471 Tm 0 Tw (ASSERMAN)Tj 10 0 0 10 241.7148 471 Tm (S)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 248.0147 471 Tm (CHULTZ)Tj 10 0 0 10 282.5342 471 Tm 0.262 Tw (. In terms of the legal memorandum )Tj -13.5534 -1 TD 0.152 Tw (that was written by John Yoo, did you ever see those memoranda )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (and what was your reaction? )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.088 Tw (Colonel W)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 205.0993 441 Tm 0 Tw (ILKERSON)Tj 10 0 0 10 249.2506 441 Tm 0.088 Tw (. I saw some of them; I didnt see all of them. )Tj -9.2251 -1 TD 0.132 Tw (In fact, as I listened to Senator Levin yesterday, I was stunned. )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.188 Tw (I knew Senator Levin was sitting on a lot of material that I had )Tj T* 0.184 Tw (not seen, but that I had heard of, but I had no idea that he had )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (gotten almost all of it, apparently, with a few exceptions. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.066 Tw (The memos that I saw gave me the impression that lawyers were )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.096 Tw (sitting in the roomyou will pardon my soldiers view of thistry-)Tj T* 0.15 Tw (ing to count how many angels could sit on the head of a pin with )Tj T* 0.186 Tw (regard to something that was, to me as a soldier, quite serious )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (torture, abuse and so forth. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.112 Tw (Ms. W)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 187.5595 341 Tm 0 Tw (ASSERMAN)Tj 10 0 0 10 238.7148 341 Tm (S)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 245.0147 341 Tm (CHULTZ)Tj 10 0 0 10 279.5342 341 Tm 0.112 Tw (. That leads me to ask you about some )Tj -13.2534 -1 TD 0.234 Tw (notes that were released from a meeting in Guantanamo Bay in )Tj T* 0.122 Tw (October of 2002 that was reviewed yesterday in the Senate Armed )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (Services Committee about interrogation methods. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.058 Tw (In that meeting, a CIA lawyer named Jon Fredman described the )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.166 Tw (legal guidance that the CIA had received from the Department of )Tj T* 0.256 Tw (Justice. Mr. Fredman said that according to the Justice Depart-)Tj T* 0.176 Tw (ment, whether something is torture is basically subject to percep-)Tj T* 0.124 Tw (tion. And he also wrote, if the detainee dies, then you are doing it )Tj T* 0 Tw (wrong. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.142 Tw (In terms of demonstrating that rules for covert operations even-)Tj -1 -1 TD 0.2 Tw (tually spilled over into standard military procedures, can you de-)Tj T* 0.14 Tw (scribe your discomfortI guess is probably an understatement )Tj T* 0.07 Tw (between the significant difference between Army Field Manual pro-)Tj T* 0.116 Tw (cedures and CIA intelligence gathering techniques and where your )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (discomfort lies? )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.18 Tw (Colonel W)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 206.0193 180.9999 Tm 0 Tw (ILKERSON)Tj 10 0 0 10 250.1706 180.9999 Tm 0.18 Tw (. I have some familiarity with what some of )Tj -10.3171 -1 TD 0.096 Tw (the CIA teams did in Vietnam, for example, that the military took, )Tj T* 0.142 Tw (at least the military I was a part of, took some great umbrage at. )Tj T* 0.126 Tw (So I do have some historical familiarity with what the CIA can do )Tj T* 0.13 Tw (in the field, has done in the field, as opposed to what the military )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (can do in the field. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.104 Tw (In this case, I think there was this double effort. The CIA would )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.094 Tw (do a highlya highly classified, compartmented program that was, )Tj /F6 1 Tf 6.5 0 0 6.5 25 20 Tm 1 g 0 Tw [(VerDate Aug 31 2005 )-1076.9(11:36 Feb 04, 2009)-1076.9(Jkt 000000)-1076.9(PO 00000)-1076.9(Frm 00041)-1076.9(Fmt 6633)-1076.9(Sfmt 6601)-1076.9(H:\\WORK\\CONST\\061808\\42972.000)-1076.9(HJUD1)-1076.9(PsN: 42972)]TJ ET endstream endobj 138 0 obj << /ProcSet [/PDF /Text ] /Font << /F1 4 0 R /F6 9 0 R >> /ExtGState << /GS1 10 0 R >> >> endobj 141 0 obj << /Length 5434 >> stream BT /F1 1 Tf 10 0 0 10 300.44 661 Tm 0 g /GS1 gs 0 Tc 0 Tw (38 )Tj -15.344 -2 TD 0.354 Tw (as pointed out earlier, only affect high-value targets, and they )Tj 0 -1.04 TD 0.052 Tw (could do certain things against those high-value targets. )Tj 1 -1.04 TD 0.066 Tw (I think what happened on the other side of the river, so to speak, )Tj -1 -1.04 TD 0.072 Tw (was that the Pentagon wanted to wage this conflict on a very wide- )Tj T* 0.154 Tw (scale basis. They wanted to go after everyone from Abu Sayyaf in )Tj T* 0.214 Tw (the Philippines to Jemaah Islamiyah to al Qaeda, every terrorist )Tj T* 0.236 Tw (that could possibly come against us. Mr. Feith writes about this )Tj T* 0.284 Tw (quite extensively in his book, War and Decision. And as a con-)Tj T* 0.052 Tw (sequence, they needed actionable intelligence too. )Tj 1 -1.04 TD 0.11 Tw (They immediately put the Special Operations Command into the )Tj -1 -1.04 TD 0.132 Tw (mix here, so much so that we actually had ambassadors calling in )Tj T* 0.056 Tw (from the field at the State Department and saying to the Secretary, )Tj T* 0.102 Tw (Who are these 64, 19-inch-bicep male Caucasians walking around )Tj T* 0.362 Tw (in our capital, moaned to everyoneof course, the ambassador )Tj T* 0.278 Tw (knew exactly who they wereand we had to ask Mr. Rumsfeld )Tj T* 0.142 Tw (what was going on. And he had to eventually fess up that he was )Tj T* 0.208 Tw (putting these people in capital cities around the world and other )Tj T* 0 Tw (places. )Tj 1 -1.04 TD 0.064 Tw (So they needed actionable intelligence for these people to take di-)Tj -1 -1.04 TD 0.102 Tw (rect action or to capture terrorists in their areas. And that is what )Tj T* 0.068 Tw (caused, I think, the gravitation over to the DOD of the legal philos-)Tj T* 0.242 Tw (ophy that backed the CIA program; and some of the same tech-)Tj T* 0.382 Tw (niques that Secretary Rumsfeld admittedly, very painstakingly, )Tj T* 0.132 Tw (went through and tried to identify those that would not constitute )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (torture, but would bring results. )Tj 1 -1.04 TD (And then )Tj T* 0.082 Tw (Ms. W)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 187.2595 370.6001 Tm 0 Tw (ASSERMAN)Tj 10 0 0 10 238.1148 370.6001 Tm (S)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 244.4147 370.6001 Tm (CHULTZ)Tj 10 0 0 10 278.9342 370.6001 Tm 0.082 Tw (. As my time expires, Iso basically, is )Tj -13.1934 -1.04 TD 0.232 Tw (it your opinion that DOJ crafted legal advice really intended for )Tj T* 0.09 Tw (the CIA, so that it would be applicable and utilized by the military )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (in intelligence and interrogation-gathering techniques? )Tj 1 -1.04 TD 0.078 Tw (Colonel W)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 204.9993 329.0001 Tm 0 Tw (ILKERSON)Tj 10 0 0 10 249.1506 329.0001 Tm 0.078 Tw (. I dont know if that was the Justices intent, )Tj -10.2151 -1.04 TD 0.162 Tw (but I know that is whatI am 99 percent sure that is what hap-)Tj T* 0 Tw (pened. )Tj 1 -1.04 TD 0.162 Tw (Ms. W)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 188.0595 297.8001 Tm 0 Tw (ASSERMAN)Tj 10 0 0 10 239.7148 297.8001 Tm (S)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 246.0147 297.8001 Tm (CHULTZ)Tj 10 0 0 10 280.5342 297.8001 Tm 0.162 Tw (. Whether it was intentional or not, it )Tj -13.3534 -1.04 TD 0.052 Tw (is still illegal? )Tj 1 -1.04 TD (Colonel W)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 204.7393 277.0001 Tm 0 Tw (ILKERSON)Tj 10 0 0 10 248.8906 277.0001 Tm 0.052 Tw (. That has what we are arguing about. )Tj -9.1891 -1.04 TD (Ms. W)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 186.9595 266.6001 Tm 0 Tw (ASSERMAN)Tj 10 0 0 10 237.5148 266.6001 Tm (S)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 243.8147 266.6001 Tm (CHULTZ)Tj 10 0 0 10 278.3342 266.6001 Tm 0.052 Tw (. I yield the balance of my time. )Tj -12.1334 -1.04 TD (Mr. N)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 185.1096 256.2001 Tm 0 Tw (ADLER)Tj 10 0 0 10 213.9971 256.2001 Tm 0.052 Tw (. I thank the gentlelady. )Tj -5.6997 -1.04 TD 0.12 Tw (I now recognize for 5 minutes for the purpose of questioning the )Tj -1 -1.04 TD 0.052 Tw (witnesses the gentleman from Minnesota. )Tj 1 -1.04 TD 0.158 Tw (Mr. E)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 185.2396 225.0001 Tm 0 Tw (LLISON)Tj 10 0 0 10 216.9511 225.0001 Tm 0.158 Tw (. Mr. Levin, we had a lot of conversation about the )Tj -6.9951 -1.04 TD 0.088 Tw (so-called torture memo, not the one that was revised, but the one )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (that wasnt; the one that you, I think, revisedthat one. )Tj 1 -1.04 TD 0.144 Tw (I think that it is fair to say that the people who participated in )Tj -1 -1.04 TD 0.136 Tw (drafting that memo, led by David Addingtonand there were sev-)Tj T* 0.162 Tw (eral others that have been mentionedwhat I would like to focus )Tj T* 0.062 Tw (your attention on is, what dialogue are you aware of that may have )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (occurred before the drafting of the memo and who participated? )Tj 1 -1.03 TD 0.068 Tw (For example, was Vice President Cheney involved in any prelimi-)Tj -1 -1.03 TD 0.052 Tw (nary discussions before the torture memo was actually written? )Tj 1 -1.03 TD 0.114 Tw (Mr. L)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 184.2496 121.3001 Tm 0 Tw (EVIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 205.5773 121.3001 Tm 0.114 Tw (. If you were asking about the August 2002 memo )Tj -4.8577 -1.03 TD 0.052 Tw (Mr. E)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 184.1796 111.0001 Tm 0 Tw (LLISON)Tj 10 0 0 10 215.8911 111.0001 Tm 0.052 Tw (. That is the one. )Tj /F6 1 Tf 6.5 0 0 6.5 25 20 Tm 1 g 0 Tw [(VerDate Aug 31 2005 )-1076.9(11:36 Feb 04, 2009)-1076.9(Jkt 000000)-1076.9(PO 00000)-1076.9(Frm 00042)-1076.9(Fmt 6633)-1076.9(Sfmt 6601)-1076.9(H:\\WORK\\CONST\\061808\\42972.000)-1076.9(HJUD1)-1076.9(PsN: 42972)]TJ ET endstream endobj 142 0 obj << /ProcSet [/PDF /Text ] /Font << /F1 4 0 R /F6 9 0 R >> /ExtGState << /GS1 10 0 R >> >> endobj 144 0 obj << /Length 5563 >> stream BT /F1 1 Tf 10 0 0 10 300.44 661 Tm 0 g /GS1 gs 0 Tc 0 Tw (39 )Tj -14.344 -2 TD 0.062 Tw (Mr. L)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 183.7296 641 Tm 0 Tw (EVIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 205.0573 641 Tm 0.062 Tw (. I just dont know, sir. I am sorry. I was actually Chief )Tj -5.8057 -1 TD 0.168 Tw (of Staff of the FBI at the time. And that was writtenI just had )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (no involvement in those issues, so I dont know. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.098 Tw (Mr. E)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 184.6396 611 Tm 0 Tw (LLISON)Tj 10 0 0 10 216.3511 611 Tm 0.098 Tw (. Yeah. But I was just assuming that given that you )Tj -6.9351 -1 TD 0.358 Tw (did come into the role that you did, and you must haveyou )Tj T* 0.186 Tw (walked those halls every day, you sat down with people, you dis-)Tj T* 0.052 Tw (cussed things. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.258 Tw (I mean, do you know if the Vice President was personally in-)Tj -1 -1 TD 0.056 Tw (volved in any preliminary discussions to the drafting of that memo? )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (Mr. L)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 183.6296 551 Tm 0 Tw (EVIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 204.9573 551 Tm 0.052 Tw (. I dont know, sir. I am sorry. )Tj -4.7957 -1 TD 0.18 Tw (Mr. E)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 185.4596 541 Tm 0 Tw (LLISON)Tj 10 0 0 10 217.1711 541 Tm 0.18 Tw (. For the record, do you know if the President was )Tj -7.0171 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (involved in the drafting of the memo? )Tj 1 -1 TD (Mr. L)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 183.6296 520.9999 Tm 0 Tw (EVIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 204.9573 520.9999 Tm 0.052 Tw (. I dont know. )Tj -4.7957 -1 TD 0.082 Tw (Mr. E)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 184.4796 510.9999 Tm 0 Tw (LLISON)Tj 10 0 0 10 216.1911 510.9999 Tm 0.082 Tw (. Now, when you drafted your memo, whythis may )Tj -6.9191 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (seem a simple question, but what made you redraft the memo? )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.14 Tw (Mr. L)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 184.5096 490.9999 Tm 0 Tw (EVIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 205.8373 490.9999 Tm 0.14 Tw (. When I arrived at OLC, that process was really sort )Tj -5.8837 -1 TD 0.246 Tw (of already under way. Questions had been raised about the pre-)Tj T* 0.134 Tw (vious memofrankly, I think, both internally and externallyand )Tj T* 0.182 Tw (I think the assessment of Jack Goldsmith, who was head of OLC )Tj T* 0.268 Tw (and others, including Deputy Attorney General Jim Comey, was )Tj T* 0.384 Tw (that the previous memo was not really an appropriate memo-)Tj T* 0.186 Tw (randum to have out there, that it should be replaced with a new )Tj T* 0 Tw (memo. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.068 Tw (And that is what I worked on when I got there. Jack had already )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (really kind of started that process. )Tj 1 -1 TD (Mr. E)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 184.1796 391 Tm 0 Tw (LLISON)Tj 10 0 0 10 215.8911 391 Tm 0.052 Tw (. Whom did you talk to in the redrafting? )Tj -5.8891 -1 TD 0.054 Tw (Mr. L)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 183.6496 381 Tm 0 Tw (EVIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 204.9773 381 Tm 0.054 Tw (. I talked to a lot of people. As I mentioned in my open-)Tj -5.7977 -1 TD 0.232 Tw (ing remarks, I think one of the problems with the earlier memo )Tj T* 0.182 Tw (was, it was not the subject of sufficiently broad collaboration and )Tj T* 0 Tw (discussion. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.14 Tw (I talked, in addition to everybody in the Office of Legal Counsel )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.172 Tw (virtually, people at the Criminal Division, various other people in )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (the Department, people at the State Department. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.09 Tw (Mr. E)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 184.5596 311 Tm 0 Tw (LLISON)Tj 10 0 0 10 216.2711 311 Tm 0.09 Tw (. Did you talk to anybody in the Vice Presidents Of-)Tj -6.9271 -1 TD 0 Tw (fice? )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.07 Tw (Mr. L)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 183.8096 290.9999 Tm 0 Tw (EVIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 205.1373 290.9999 Tm 0.07 Tw (. I dont believe I did talk to anybody in the Vice Presi-)Tj -5.8137 -1 TD 0.114 Tw (dents Office. I did submit drafts to the White House Counsels Of-)Tj T* 0.23 Tw (fice, and whom they circulated it to in the White House, I dont )Tj T* 0 Tw (know. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (Mr. E)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 184.1796 250.9999 Tm 0 Tw (LLISON)Tj 10 0 0 10 215.8911 250.9999 Tm 0.052 Tw (. Okay. )Tj -5.8891 -1 TD 0.102 Tw (Do you know ifdid Mr. Addington have any input into your re-)Tj -1 -1 TD 0 Tw (draft? )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.066 Tw (Mr. L)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 183.7696 220.9999 Tm 0 Tw (EVIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 205.0973 220.9999 Tm 0.066 Tw (. Not directly to me. Whether he did so indirectly, I am )Tj -5.8097 -1 TD 0.068 Tw (not sure. He may have provided comments to White House Counsel )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (that were then communicated to me as their comments. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.25 Tw (I was not ever told anything that were his comments, and he )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (never spoke to me about it directly. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.318 Tw (Mr. E)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 186.8396 171 Tm 0 Tw (LLISON)Tj 10 0 0 10 218.5511 171 Tm 0.318 Tw (. Could you put your finger on exactly what the )Tj -7.1551 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (parts of the memo were that needed changing? )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.064 Tw (Mr. L)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 183.7496 150.9999 Tm 0 Tw (EVIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 205.0773 150.9999 Tm 0.064 Tw (. There werethere really were two parts of it, or from )Tj -5.8077 -1 TD 0.076 Tw (the big picture, there were aspects of the actual analysis of the tor-)Tj T* 0.052 Tw (ture statute that I concluded were incorrect, I disagreed with. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.148 Tw (Maybe I am wrong and they are right, but I disagreed with the )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (actual analysis of the statute. )Tj /F6 1 Tf 6.5 0 0 6.5 25 20 Tm 1 g 0 Tw [(VerDate Aug 31 2005 )-1076.9(11:36 Feb 04, 2009)-1076.9(Jkt 000000)-1076.9(PO 00000)-1076.9(Frm 00043)-1076.9(Fmt 6633)-1076.9(Sfmt 6601)-1076.9(H:\\WORK\\CONST\\061808\\42972.000)-1076.9(HJUD1)-1076.9(PsN: 42972)]TJ ET endstream endobj 145 0 obj << /ProcSet [/PDF /Text ] /Font << /F1 4 0 R /F6 9 0 R >> /ExtGState << /GS1 10 0 R >> >> endobj 147 0 obj << /Length 5426 >> stream BT /F1 1 Tf 10 0 0 10 300.44 661 Tm 0 g /GS1 gs 0 Tc 0 Tw (40 )Tj -14.344 -2 TD 0.056 Tw (There was then a very large part of the opinion that went beyond )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.152 Tw (the statute to a variety of other analysis of the Presidents ability )Tj T* 0.126 Tw (to override the statute, self-defense, necessity defenses to the stat-)Tj T* 0.112 Tw (ute; and in my, view and I think the view of others, that was sim-)Tj T* 0.052 Tw (ply inappropriate to even include in the memo. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.178 Tw (The Presidents clear direction was, we are not going to engage )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.108 Tw (in torture. So there was no reason to look for ways that you might )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (be able to get around the statute or violate the statute. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.146 Tw (Mr. E)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 185.1196 561 Tm 0 Tw (LLISON)Tj 10 0 0 10 216.8311 561 Tm 0.146 Tw (. Do you believe that the earlier memo gave license )Tj -6.9831 -1 TD 0.126 Tw (to people following its direction to engage in illegal techniques, in-)Tj T* 0.052 Tw (terrogation techniques? )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.098 Tw (Mr. L)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 184.0896 530.9999 Tm 0 Tw (EVIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 205.4173 530.9999 Tm 0.098 Tw (. Well, it included a definition of torture that I frankly )Tj -5.8417 -1 TD 0.138 Tw (disagreed with and which would have, I think, allowed techniques )Tj T* 0.18 Tw (that I would have concluded violated the statute. And it included )Tj T* 0.174 Tw (this discussion of ways that you could overcome the statute, even )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (if it applied and otherwise would have been violated. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.08 Tw (Mr. E)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 184.4596 480.9999 Tm 0 Tw (LLISON)Tj 10 0 0 10 216.1711 480.9999 Tm 0.08 Tw (. So if somebody were to rely on that memo, the ear-)Tj -6.9171 -1 TD 0.206 Tw (lier memo, they would have been violating the law intentionally? )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.082 Tw (Mr. L)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 183.9296 460.9999 Tm 0 Tw (EVIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 205.2573 460.9999 Tm 0.082 Tw (. If somebody relied on the first part of that memo and )Tj -5.8257 -1 TD 0.204 Tw (went up to the limits of what it allowed, in my view they would )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (be violating the law. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.13 Tw (Now, again, maybe I am wrong and the earlier memo is correct. )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.066 Tw (If somebody relied on the other constitutional overrides of these de-)Tj T* 0.122 Tw (fenses, in my view they might well have been violating the law. It )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (obviously would depend on the circumstances. )Tj 1 -1 TD (Mr. E)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 184.1796 391 Tm 0 Tw (LLISON)Tj 10 0 0 10 215.8911 391 Tm 0.052 Tw (. Did that ever happen? )Tj -5.8891 -1 TD (Mr. L)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 183.6296 381 Tm 0 Tw (EVIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 204.9573 381 Tm 0.052 Tw (. I dont know. I dont know. )Tj -4.7957 -1 TD 0.246 Tw (I know there have been lots of investigations into sort of how )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.14 Tw (things ended up happening and who was relying on what. My un-)Tj T* 0.236 Tw (derstanding was that that memo was verywas not broadly cir-)Tj T* 0.09 Tw (culated. And so I dont know whether people who were engaging in )Tj T* 0.13 Tw (any conduct were even aware of the memo, let alone relying on it. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.094 Tw (Mr. N)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 185.5296 320.9999 Tm 0 Tw (ADLER)Tj 10 0 0 10 214.4171 320.9999 Tm 0.094 Tw (. Thank you. The time of the gentleman has expired. )Tj -5.7417 -1 TD 0.082 Tw (There are six votes on the House floor. There are 12 minutes left )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.13 Tw (to vote. We have two people left to ask questions. We are going to )Tj T* 0.062 Tw (try to finish it, because otherwise we will have to ask the witnesses )Tj T* 0.128 Tw (to stay an hour or so. So I am going to have to be strict now with )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (the timing. )Tj 1 -1 TD (The gentleman from Virginia is recognized. )Tj T* (Mr. S)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 183.2596 250.9999 Tm 0 Tw (COTT)Tj 10 0 0 10 205.9312 250.9999 Tm 0.052 Tw (. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. )Tj -4.8931 -1 TD 0.158 Tw (Mr. Levin, is there an internationally accepted definition of tor-)Tj -1 -1 TD 0.204 Tw (ture? I mean, if you went to the United Nations, would there be )Tj T* 0.154 Tw (a lot of confusion about when it is torture and when it is not tor-)Tj T* 0 Tw (ture? )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.136 Tw (Mr. L)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 184.4696 200.9999 Tm 0 Tw (EVIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 205.7973 200.9999 Tm 0.136 Tw (. I think, as a general matter, the Convention against )Tj -5.8797 -1 TD 0.178 Tw (Torture is probably the internationally accepted definition. Apply-)Tj T* 0.182 Tw (ing it in particular circumstances may be difficult, but the actual )Tj T* 0.152 Tw (definition I think ismost people would accept that as the defini-)Tj T* 0 Tw (tion. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.154 Tw (Mr. S)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 184.2796 150.9999 Tm 0 Tw (COTT)Tj 10 0 0 10 206.9512 150.9999 Tm 0.154 Tw (. Well, I mean, does it become okay if you, instead of )Tj -5.9951 -1 TD 0.304 Tw (calling it torture, call it aggressive interrogation techniques? )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (Does that make it okay? )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.064 Tw (Mr. L)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 183.7496 120.9999 Tm 0 Tw (EVIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 205.0773 120.9999 Tm 0.064 Tw (. No. If it violated either the Convention or the statute, )Tj -5.8077 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (it doesnt matter what you call it. )Tj /F6 1 Tf 6.5 0 0 6.5 25 20 Tm 1 g 0 Tw [(VerDate Aug 31 2005 )-1076.9(11:36 Feb 04, 2009)-1076.9(Jkt 000000)-1076.9(PO 00000)-1076.9(Frm 00044)-1076.9(Fmt 6633)-1076.9(Sfmt 6601)-1076.9(H:\\WORK\\CONST\\061808\\42972.000)-1076.9(HJUD1)-1076.9(PsN: 42972)]TJ ET endstream endobj 148 0 obj << /ProcSet [/PDF /Text ] /Font << /F1 4 0 R /F6 9 0 R >> /ExtGState << /GS1 10 0 R >> >> endobj 150 0 obj << /Length 5982 >> stream BT /F1 1 Tf 10 0 0 10 300.44 661 Tm 0 g /GS1 gs 0 Tc 0 Tw (41 )Tj -14.344 -2 TD 0.1 Tw (Mr. S)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 183.7396 641 Tm 0 Tw (COTT)Tj 10 0 0 10 206.4113 641 Tm 0.1 Tw (. And the rules, do they apply if you are under United )Tj -5.9411 -1.04 TD 0.052 Tw (States control, but not technically on United States jurisdiction? )Tj 1 -1.04 TD (Mr. L)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 183.6296 620.2 Tm 0 Tw (EVIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 204.9573 620.2 Tm 0.052 Tw (. The statute actuallythe Federal statute only applies )Tj -5.7957 -1.04 TD 0.122 Tw (if you are outside of the United States, and so it would only apply )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (in the situation where you were outside the United States. )Tj 1 -1.04 TD 0.152 Tw (If you were inside the United States, various other statutes )Tj T* 0.356 Tw (Mr. S)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 186.2996 578.6001 Tm 0 Tw (COTT)Tj 10 0 0 10 208.9713 578.6001 Tm 0.356 Tw (. So it would apply at Guantanamo Bay and Abu )Tj -6.1971 -1.04 TD 0.052 Tw (Ghraib prison? )Tj 1 -1.04 TD (Mr. L)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 183.6296 557.8 Tm 0 Tw (EVIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 204.9573 557.8 Tm 0.052 Tw (. Yes, I think that is correct. I dont think anybody ever )Tj -5.7957 -1.04 TD (suggested that the statute did not apply. )Tj 1 -1.04 TD 0.362 Tw (Mr. S)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 186.3596 537.0001 Tm 0 Tw (COTT)Tj 10 0 0 10 209.0313 537.0001 Tm 0.362 Tw (. Okay. If the tortureif the normal interrogation )Tj -6.2031 -1.04 TD 0.052 Tw (techniques do not work, does that justify torture? )Tj 1 -1.04 TD 0.222 Tw (Mr. L)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 185.3296 516.2001 Tm 0 Tw (EVIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 206.6573 516.2001 Tm 0.222 Tw (. Under the statute, nothing justifies torture. If it is )Tj -5.9657 -1.04 TD 0.052 Tw (torture, it is not allowed, regardless of the reason. )Tj 1 -1.04 TD (Mr. S)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 183.2596 495.4001 Tm 0 Tw (COTT)Tj 10 0 0 10 205.9312 495.4001 Tm 0.052 Tw (. If it worked, does it justify the torture? )Tj -4.8931 -1.04 TD 0.138 Tw (Mr. L)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 184.4896 485.0001 Tm 0 Tw (EVIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 205.8173 485.0001 Tm 0.138 Tw (. No. Under the statute, it doesnt. There is nothere )Tj -5.8817 -1.04 TD 0.092 Tw (is nothing that says you can do it if it is successful. It doesnt mat-)Tj T* 0.052 Tw (ter whether it is successful or not. )Tj 1 -1.04 TD 0.148 Tw (Mr. S)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 184.2196 453.8001 Tm 0 Tw (COTT)Tj 10 0 0 10 206.8912 453.8001 Tm 0.148 Tw (. Does it become okay if the Administration says it is )Tj -5.9891 -1.04 TD 0 Tw (okay? )Tj 1 -1.04 TD 0.178 Tw (Mr. L)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 184.8896 433.0001 Tm 0 Tw (EVIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 206.2173 433.0001 Tm 0.178 Tw (. No. If it violates the statute, it violates the statute. )Tj -4.9217 -1.04 TD 0.176 Tw (Mr. S)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 184.4996 422.6001 Tm 0 Tw (COTT)Tj 10 0 0 10 207.1713 422.6001 Tm 0.176 Tw (. So theyou cant just write a little memo saying it )Tj -6.0171 -1.04 TD 0.158 Tw (is okay and that gives everybody the green light to go forward; is )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (that right? )Tj 1 -1.04 TD (Mr. L)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 183.6296 391.4001 Tm 0 Tw (EVIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 204.9573 391.4001 Tm 0.052 Tw (. No. )Tj -4.7957 -1.04 TD 0.124 Tw (I mean, obviously you would have to analyze the statute as best )Tj -1 -1.04 TD 0.218 Tw (you could to make sure you were complying with it and not vio-)Tj T* 0.052 Tw (lating it. )Tj 1 -1.04 TD 0.218 Tw (Mr. S)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 184.9196 349.8001 Tm 0 Tw (COTT)Tj 10 0 0 10 207.5912 349.8001 Tm 0.218 Tw (. And this thing called rendition, does thatif you )Tj -6.0591 -1.04 TD 0.118 Tw (hand somebody over to someone who is not restrained, knowing or )Tj T* 0.196 Tw (at least suspecting they are going to torture somebody, does that )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (make you complicit? )Tj 1 -1.04 TD 0.056 Tw (Mr. L)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 183.6696 308.2001 Tm 0 Tw (EVIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 204.9973 308.2001 Tm 0.056 Tw (. Well, it would violate the Convention against Torture, )Tj -5.7997 -1.04 TD 0.212 Tw (which has a prohibition against just that. Whether it would con-)Tj T* 0.06 Tw (stitute a conspiracy to violate the U.S. statute, I think, is not some-)Tj T* 0.052 Tw (thing I have ever analyzed, so I dont know. )Tj 1 -1.04 TD (But it would certainly violate the Convention against Torture. )Tj T* 0.208 Tw (Mr. S)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 184.8196 256.2001 Tm 0 Tw (COTT)Tj 10 0 0 10 207.4912 256.2001 Tm 0.208 Tw (. Following up on one of the questions that the gen-)Tj -6.0491 -1.04 TD 0.106 Tw (tleman from Minnesota asked, in your 2004 memo, you had a foot-)Tj T* 0.098 Tw (note in there that said, We have reviewed this officers prior opin-)Tj T* 0.118 Tw (ions addressing issues involving treatment of detainees and do not )Tj T* 0.17 Tw (believe that any of their conclusions would be different under the )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (standards set forth in this memorandum. )Tj 1 -1.04 TD 0.064 Tw (ABC News reported that the White House insisted that that foot-)Tj -1 -1.04 TD 0.052 Tw (note be included; is that true? )Tj 1 -1.04 TD 0.098 Tw (Mr. L)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 184.0896 173.0001 Tm 0 Tw (EVIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 205.4173 173.0001 Tm 0.098 Tw (. I dontI am not allowed to discuss that. I am sorry, )Tj -5.8417 -1.04 TD 0 Tw (sir. )Tj 1 -1.04 TD 0.052 Tw (Mr. S)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 183.2596 152.2001 Tm 0 Tw (COTT)Tj 10 0 0 10 205.9312 152.2001 Tm 0.052 Tw (. Do you deny the ABC report? )Tj -4.8931 -1.03 TD 0.176 Tw (Mr. L)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 184.8696 141.9001 Tm 0 Tw (EVIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 206.1973 141.9001 Tm 0.176 Tw (. I think if I answer that question, I would be giving )Tj -5.9197 -1.03 TD 0.052 Tw (an answer to the question I am not allowed to answer. )Tj 1 -1.03 TD (So I am sorry. I am simply not authorized to discuss that. )Tj T* (Mr. S)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 183.2596 111.0001 Tm 0 Tw (COTT)Tj 10 0 0 10 205.9312 111.0001 Tm 0.052 Tw (. What is the meaning of that footnote? )Tj /F6 1 Tf 6.5 0 0 6.5 25 20 Tm 1 g 0 Tw [(VerDate Aug 31 2005 )-1076.9(11:36 Feb 04, 2009)-1076.9(Jkt 000000)-1076.9(PO 00000)-1076.9(Frm 00045)-1076.9(Fmt 6633)-1076.9(Sfmt 6601)-1076.9(H:\\WORK\\CONST\\061808\\42972.000)-1076.9(HJUD1)-1076.9(PsN: 42972)]TJ ET endstream endobj 151 0 obj << /ProcSet [/PDF /Text ] /Font << /F1 4 0 R /F6 9 0 R >> /ExtGState << /GS1 10 0 R >> >> endobj 153 0 obj << /Length 5214 >> stream BT /F1 1 Tf 10 0 0 10 300.44 661 Tm 0 g /GS1 gs 0 Tc 0 Tw (42 )Tj -14.344 -2 TD 0.074 Tw (Mr. L)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 183.8496 641 Tm 0 Tw (EVIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 205.1773 641 Tm 0.074 Tw (. I can tell you what it meant to say. And to the extent )Tj -5.8177 -1 TD 0.19 Tw (people have interpreted it differently, it is my fault for not being )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (clearer on it. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.162 Tw (But what I meant was, if you took the other opinions the office )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.146 Tw (had written analyzing particular techniques, and you took out the )Tj T* 0.154 Tw (statutory analysis there and put in the new statutory analysis, in )Tj T* 0.09 Tw (my view, the people writing those opinions would not have come to )Tj T* 0.202 Tw (a different conclusion. Because, for instance, they never said this )Tj T* 0.08 Tw (pain is really, really extreme, and it is just up to the line of body )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (organ failure, but it is not quite there. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.102 Tw (They neverthose opinions never thought they were close to the )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.13 Tw (line. It did not mean, as some have interpretedand again this is )Tj T* 0.264 Tw (my fault, no doubt, in draftingthat we had concluded that we )Tj T* 0.118 Tw (would have reached the same conclusions as those earlier opinions )Tj T* 0.244 Tw (did. We were, in fact, analyzing that at the time, and we never )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (completed that analysis. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.206 Tw (Mr. S)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 184.7996 480.9999 Tm 0 Tw (COTT)Tj 10 0 0 10 207.4713 480.9999 Tm 0.206 Tw (. Just to be clear on the White House asking you to )Tj -6.0471 -1 TD 0.21 Tw (do this, without revealing the contents of the discussion, did you )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (discuss the footnote with the White House? )Tj 1 -1 TD (Mr. L)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 183.6296 450.9999 Tm 0 Tw (EVIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 204.9573 450.9999 Tm 0.052 Tw (. Yes. )Tj -4.7957 -1 TD (Mr. S)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 183.2596 441 Tm 0 Tw (COTT)Tj 10 0 0 10 205.9312 441 Tm 0.052 Tw (. I yield back, Mr. Chairman. )Tj -4.8931 -1 TD 0.206 Tw (Mr. N)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 186.6496 431 Tm 0 Tw (ADLER)Tj 10 0 0 10 215.5371 431 Tm 0.206 Tw (. And the gentleman from North Carolina is recog-)Tj -6.8537 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (nized for 5 minutes. )Tj 1 -1 TD (Mr. W)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 186.7695 411 Tm 0 Tw (ATT)Tj 10 0 0 10 203.2173 411 Tm 0.052 Tw (. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. )Tj -4.6217 -1 TD 0.184 Tw (Mr. Wilkerson, I just want to zero in on one question and that )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.106 Tw (is the levels at which leadership failed. You have got this sentence )Tj T* 0.252 Tw (in here, At what level did American leadership fail? I believe it )Tj T* 0.102 Tw (failed at the highest levels of the Pentagon, in the Vice Presidents )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (Office and perhaps even in the Oval Office. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.18 Tw (I am going to set aside the Oval Office because you are conjec-)Tj -1 -1 TD 0.16 Tw (turing there. You seem to be conjecturing there, and excusing the )Tj T* 0.216 Tw (President for relying on the February 7, 2002, memo that he re-)Tj T* 0.082 Tw (ceived. But there is no conjecture in the early part of that sentence )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (it seems to me. Maybe you intended for there to be. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.124 Tw (What was it that led you to believe that leadership failed at the )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (Vice Presidential level? )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.11 Tw (Colonel W)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 205.3193 280.9999 Tm 0 Tw (ILKERSON)Tj 10 0 0 10 249.4706 280.9999 Tm 0.11 Tw (. Well, reasonable people can argue and have )Tj -10.2471 -1 TD 0.142 Tw (argued, and probably will forever as long as the CIA exists, about )Tj T* 0.266 Tw (the CIA doing what was essentially attempted to be verified le-)Tj T* 0 Tw (gally. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.152 Tw (My problem is with the military, and that is what I am talking )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.102 Tw (about with regard to failed leadership. But I actually think that in )Tj T* 0.204 Tw (addition to Jim Haynes and Douglas Feith, that the Defense De-)Tj T* 0.138 Tw (partmentand, ultimately, the blame goes to the Secretary of De-)Tj T* 0.17 Tw (fense, Donald Rumsfeldthere was a sharing of information from )Tj T* 0.056 Tw (the Vice Presidents Office through David Addington, John Yoo, Jay )Tj T* 0.148 Tw (Bybee and others that allowed the Defense Department to rapidly )Tj T* 0.082 Tw (build a legal argument with regard to what it was going to do with )Tj T* 0.088 Tw (the military forces; and that that legal argument ultimately wound )Tj T* 0.12 Tw (up, in my view, causing some of the problems that we saw, for ex-)Tj T* 0.052 Tw (ample, most dramatically, with Abu Ghraib. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.186 Tw (Mr. W)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 188.1095 130.9999 Tm 0 Tw (ATT)Tj 10 0 0 10 204.5573 130.9999 Tm 0.186 Tw (. So when you are referring to a failure of leadership )Tj -5.7557 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (in the Vice Presidents Office, you are talking about who? )Tj 1 -1 TD (Colonel W)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 204.7393 110.9999 Tm 0 Tw (ILKERSON)Tj 10 0 0 10 248.8906 110.9999 Tm 0.052 Tw (. I am talking about David Addington. )Tj /F6 1 Tf 6.5 0 0 6.5 25 20 Tm 1 g 0 Tw [(VerDate Aug 31 2005 )-1076.9(11:36 Feb 04, 2009)-1076.9(Jkt 000000)-1076.9(PO 00000)-1076.9(Frm 00046)-1076.9(Fmt 6633)-1076.9(Sfmt 6601)-1076.9(H:\\WORK\\CONST\\061808\\42972.000)-1076.9(HJUD1)-1076.9(PsN: 42972)]TJ ET endstream endobj 154 0 obj << /ProcSet [/PDF /Text ] /Font << /F1 4 0 R /F6 9 0 R >> /ExtGState << /GS1 10 0 R >> >> endobj 156 0 obj << /Length 5651 >> stream BT /F1 1 Tf 10 0 0 10 300.44 661 Tm 0 g /GS1 gs 0 Tc 0 Tw (43 )Tj -14.344 -2 TD 0.052 Tw (Mr. W)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 186.7695 641 Tm 0 Tw (ATT)Tj 10 0 0 10 203.2173 641 Tm 0.052 Tw (. In the Office of Legal Counsel? )Tj -4.6217 -1.04 TD 0.116 Tw (Colonel W)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 205.3793 630.6 Tm 0 Tw (ILKERSON)Tj 10 0 0 10 249.5306 630.6 Tm 0.116 Tw (. No. David Addington was in the Vice Presi-)Tj -10.2531 -1.04 TD 0.052 Tw (dents Office. )Tj 1 -1.04 TD (Mr. W)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 186.7695 609.8 Tm 0 Tw (ATT)Tj 10 0 0 10 203.2173 609.8 Tm 0.052 Tw (. And what role was he playing? )Tj -4.6217 -1.04 TD 0.07 Tw (Colonel W)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 204.9193 599.4 Tm 0 Tw (ILKERSON)Tj 10 0 0 10 249.0706 599.4 Tm 0.07 Tw (. As I understand it, he wasat that time, he )Tj -10.2071 -1.04 TD 0.052 Tw (was Counselor to the Vice President. )Tj 1 -1.04 TD 0.126 Tw (Mr. W)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 187.5095 578.6001 Tm 0 Tw (ATT)Tj 10 0 0 10 203.9573 578.6001 Tm 0.126 Tw (. And were you able to determine whether he was act-)Tj -5.6957 -1.04 TD 0.098 Tw (ing with the authority of the Vice President or without the author-)Tj T* 0 Tw (ity? )Tj 1 -1.04 TD 0.262 Tw (Colonel W)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 206.8393 547.4001 Tm 0 Tw (ILKERSON)Tj 10 0 0 10 250.9906 547.4001 Tm 0.262 Tw (. I have no idea. David has been with Mr. )Tj -10.3991 -1.04 TD 0.096 Tw (Cheney for a long time. He was in the Pentagon when I was work-)Tj T* 0.18 Tw (ing for Chairman Powellwhen General Powell was Chairman of )Tj T* 0.11 Tw (the Joint Chiefs of Staff. And we in the military had some strange )Tj T* 0.186 Tw (terms to refer to David. I dont believe that David would do any-)Tj T* 0.052 Tw (thing that the Vice President was not aware of. )Tj 1 -1.04 TD 0.232 Tw (Mr. W)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 188.5695 485.0001 Tm 0 Tw (ATT)Tj 10 0 0 10 205.0173 485.0001 Tm 0.232 Tw (. Mr. Chairman, I have more time, but we have one )Tj -5.8017 -1.04 TD 0.056 Tw (more person here and it would deprive her of the opportunity if you )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (want to not come back after the six votes. )Tj 1 -1.04 TD 0.204 Tw (Mr. N)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 186.6296 453.8001 Tm 0 Tw (ADLER)Tj 10 0 0 10 215.5171 453.8001 Tm 0.204 Tw (. By unanimous consent, we will give 2 minutes to )Tj -6.8517 -1.04 TD 0.084 Tw (the gentlelady from Texas, who is a Member of Committee, but not )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (the Subcommittee. )Tj 1 -1.04 TD 0.318 Tw (Ms. J)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 185.3696 422.6001 Tm 0 Tw (ACKSON)Tj 10 0 0 10 226.8891 422.6001 Tm (L)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 233.559 422.6001 Tm (EE)Tj 10 0 0 10 245.1108 422.6001 Tm 0.318 Tw (. Let me thank my good friend from North )Tj -9.8111 -1.04 TD 0.052 Tw (Carolina, the Chairman, and of course the Ranking Member. )Tj 1 -1.04 TD 0.14 Tw (Let me quickly just ask, in light of the Supreme Court decision, )Tj -1 -1.04 TD 0.264 Tw (to the gentleman therelet me thank you for your servicecan )Tj T* 0.458 Tw (anyone affirm the midnight venture to then-Attorney General )Tj T* 0.084 Tw (Ashcroft? Was it your understanding that a trip to his office by the )Tj T* 0.07 Tw (then-Attorney Generalor to the hospital bedthat had to do with )Tj T* 0.196 Tw (torture and signing off on the fact that torture could be utilized? )Tj 1 -1.04 TD 0.052 Tw (Was that ever gleaned as fact? )Tj T* 0.096 Tw (Mr. L)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 184.0696 329.0001 Tm 0 Tw (EVIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 205.3973 329.0001 Tm 0.096 Tw (. My understanding, based in part on Deputy Attorney )Tj -5.8397 -1.04 TD 0.316 Tw (Generals Comeys testimony, is that that related to a different )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (matter, not to interrogation techniques. )Tj 1 -1.04 TD 0.054 Tw (Ms. J)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 182.7296 297.8001 Tm 0 Tw (ACKSON)Tj 10 0 0 10 221.6091 297.8001 Tm (L)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 228.279 297.8001 Tm (EE)Tj 10 0 0 10 239.8308 297.8001 Tm 0.054 Tw (. And as you have justthe three of you, as you )Tj -9.2831 -1.04 TD 0.09 Tw (perceive some of the actions that occurred with respect to the writ-)Tj T* 0.066 Tw (ing of the memo, the issues thatnot presented to Congress, would )Tj T* 0.156 Tw (you consider any of those patent violation of constitutional law as )Tj T* 0.112 Tw (it relates to how the torture memo was written or how it was ulti-)Tj T* 0.052 Tw (mately utilized? )Tj 1 -1.04 TD (Mr. Levin? If I could get all three of you to answer. )Tj T* 0.238 Tw (Mr. L)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 185.4896 225.0001 Tm 0 Tw (EVIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 206.8173 225.0001 Tm 0.238 Tw (. Yes. I concluded that the statutory analysis in the )Tj -5.9817 -1.04 TD 0.052 Tw (original memo was incorrect in some respects. )Tj 1 -1.04 TD 0.184 Tw (Again, they may be right and I may be wrong, but I concluded )Tj -1 -1.04 TD 0.136 Tw (it was incorrect as a matter of statutory analysis. There was a lot )Tj T* 0.346 Tw (of constitutional analysis in there that we concluded was com-)Tj T* 0.052 Tw (pletely unnecessary. )Tj 1 -1.04 TD 0.16 Tw (So I neverI have not really gone through kind of line by line. )Tj -1 -1.04 TD 0.074 Tw (There are parts I dont agree with, but Iyou know, I havent real-)Tj 0 -1.03 TD 0.052 Tw (ly kind of gone through it line by line. )Tj 1 -1.03 TD (Ms. J)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 182.7096 131.6001 Tm 0 Tw (ACKSON)Tj 10 0 0 10 221.5691 131.6001 Tm (L)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 228.239 131.6001 Tm (EE)Tj 10 0 0 10 239.7908 131.6001 Tm 0.052 Tw (. But it had constitutional weaknesses. )Tj -8.2791 -1.03 TD 0.224 Tw (The other gentlemen, if you could answer that question as my )Tj -1 -1.03 TD 0.052 Tw (time ends. )Tj /F6 1 Tf 6.5 0 0 6.5 25 20 Tm 1 g 0 Tw [(VerDate Aug 31 2005 )-1076.9(11:36 Feb 04, 2009)-1076.9(Jkt 000000)-1076.9(PO 00000)-1076.9(Frm 00047)-1076.9(Fmt 6633)-1076.9(Sfmt 6601)-1076.9(H:\\WORK\\CONST\\061808\\42972.000)-1076.9(HJUD1)-1076.9(PsN: 42972)]TJ ET endstream endobj 157 0 obj << /ProcSet [/PDF /Text ] /Font << /F1 4 0 R /F6 9 0 R >> /ExtGState << /GS1 10 0 R >> >> endobj 159 0 obj << /Length 2860 >> stream BT /F1 1 Tf 10 0 0 10 300.44 661 Tm 0 g /GS1 gs 0 Tc 0 Tw (44 )Tj -14.344 -2 TD 0.108 Tw (Mr. R)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 184.7396 641 Tm 0 Tw (IVKIN)Tj 10 0 0 10 209.7712 641 Tm 0.108 Tw (. I am in substantial accord with Dan. I am not a big )Tj -6.2771 -1 TD 0.152 Tw (fan of that memo, but I dont think anything in there rises to the )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (level of malfeasance or bad faith or violations of law. )Tj 1 -1 TD (Ms. J)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 182.7096 611 Tm 0 Tw (ACKSON)Tj 10 0 0 10 221.5691 611 Tm (L)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 228.239 611 Tm (EE)Tj 10 0 0 10 239.7908 611 Tm 0.052 Tw (. Mr. Wilkerson? )Tj -8.2791 -1 TD 0.108 Tw (Colonel W)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 205.2993 601 Tm 0 Tw (ILKERSON)Tj 10 0 0 10 249.4506 601 Tm 0.108 Tw (. I am not a lawyer, so I dont feel competent )Tj -10.2451 -1 TD 0.15 Tw (to comment on that. But I will tell you that Secretary Powell and )Tj T* 0.122 Tw (I had opportunity to share our views once or twice on what things )Tj T* 0.184 Tw (that were happening in the world, particularly Guantanamo, Abu )Tj T* 0.052 Tw (Ghraib and other revelations that were coming out. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.212 Tw (We are doing a remarkable job of diminishing our influence in )Tj -1 -1 TD 0.052 Tw (the world and our real power in the world. )Tj 1 -1 TD (Mr. N)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 185.1096 530.9999 Tm 0 Tw (ADLER)Tj 10 0 0 10 213.9971 530.9999 Tm 0.052 Tw (. I thank the gentlemen. )Tj -5.6997 -1 TD (The time of the gentlelady has expired. )Tj T* (Ms. J)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 182.7096 510.9999 Tm 0 Tw (ACKSON)Tj 10 0 0 10 221.5691 510.9999 Tm (L)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 228.239 510.9999 Tm (EE)Tj 10 0 0 10 239.7908 510.9999 Tm 0.052 Tw (. Thank you very much. )Tj -8.2791 -1 TD 0.132 Tw (Mr. N)Tj 8 0 0 7.6194 185.9096 500.9999 Tm 0 Tw (ADLER)Tj 10 0 0 10 214.7971 500.9999 Tm 0.132 Tw (. I thank the witnesses. Without objection, all Mem-)Tj -6.7797 -1 TD 0.142 Tw (bers will have 5 legislative days to submit to the Chair additional )Tj T* 0.13 Tw (written questions to the witnesses, which we will forward and ask )Tj T* 0.196 Tw (the witnesses to respond to as promptly as you can so that their )Tj T* 0.28 Tw (answers may be made part of the record. Without objection, all )Tj T* 0.106 Tw (Members will have 5 legislative days to submit any additional ma-)Tj T* 0.052 Tw (terials for inclusion in the record. )Tj 1 -1 TD (There is now 1 minute left for us to get to the floor and vote. )Tj T* 0.2 Tw (I thank the witnesses again. And with that, the hearing is ad-)Tj -1 -1 TD 0 Tw (journed. )Tj 1 -1 TD 0.052 Tw ([Whereupon, at 3:49 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.] )Tj /F8 1 Tf 18 0 0 18 300.96 383 Tm 0 Tw ( )Tj /F6 1 Tf 6.5 0 0 6.5 25 20 Tm 1 g [(VerDate Aug 31 2005 )-1076.9(11:36 Feb 04, 2009)-1076.9(Jkt 000000)-1076.9(PO 00000)-1076.9(Frm 00048)-1076.9(Fmt 6633)-1076.9(Sfmt 6011)-1076.9(H:\\WORK\\CONST\\061808\\42972.000)-1076.9(HJUD1)-1076.9(PsN: 42972)]TJ ET endstream endobj 160 0 obj << /ProcSet [/PDF /Text ] /Font << /F1 4 0 R /F6 9 0 R /F8 161 0 R >> /ExtGState << /GS1 10 0 R >> >> endobj 120 0 obj << /Type /XObject /Subtype /Image /Width 1321 /Height 2067 /BitsPerComponent 1 /ColorSpace /DeviceGray /Length 343123 /Metadata 119 0 R >> stream ?c߿`y۟1 =0H<"|"pp bp` Bc?g?>00?02=' ~ >L4]̘0 0 h !@Ѐ8 @0 @Ä0 G 3"$??`JG";`??Gφ/ @`?/8>??C`@??8>???? #?>|<08?|<~~?@<8?<o??8  @x???~:? |?8??_`?@` ??3 ?`8 ?3@ ?`?8 0? @`` ??0? @p p?`x ?@?x ||???r?|?|~???qg?~|~? ? ~|???@??#?? ?px~`88` |00@hx=???|||?~G|???|?~|8x~|?|<??|<? |8`瓌?xyx|?` 0 |?`|?87?{|?`w|?x'>|?c>|???|???>x?|<8?<~0`?|<<g100@0@? p0q a<00p1 a8p<00p ca8p00F ca>00?F ca>0?00|@ 00@@x8 a0a @0xq0Csq a0a8a8|Ǐy?1r!L &08 @@2> 8xF~:~30;FG:~? 10v0:>;0f`0 2>? ```~<?8``xd~>x&C0`2aAx. 0cah ~o8 6 >|` ~8>|0 <0& G@?y@F?G`NA?Oh^A؟8|o<?@?p???? ???`???? ~`~~p~ pp|>< x|xx>`8>xp`><??xp8?<`?x?x?8?<`?| xx?<><~xx|`9?p??<<>px`~x<?p@ x8??px?@|?_w@~??ȟ)???@ ????`?pxxÃq?@c 8p< a~0ǎ<` c~ <<>>pp A> pq| xÇ8?18cy?~ ||`Ç~q|a<8p?>?8?Þ=?8|x`p@@@@ ??Ï|;xp?08@c|<~?>8G8?<3p0_ <0@?8 xC@s?|8 ?00x@<?'1#G_r8` pq >??> LJ?~???8?ap?8C??xp??<`@@p@880dž8pÇǎ0? c <<Î>xpÌ~p3LJ?~??8p<?~c <?|0|7<' xß?8xpぜ 'dž?83?8apÃ<?c `| ~@ß?8xp?ǟ8`p~? a `~@ß>8x0!|3þÀ  8px~? ``C` ?8 K߿<?>???????H>w??????ߟ?????p00 >?~x>00>00``??x ?<x8<pp 0p`pxǏ?dž>888qf?>px?<?DŽx>8pqÏ00xLJ>888q` <` 8Ç>>8??~? ~><q0xxCLJ㇆?8xqc7 `!xσ>><0 ??|>~><>#0x|LJdž?8xqC?? ?><1g??>|><8pÇ|0~8xq``?s??<1@>?<|>8qÇ0x0ax?ÇÇ800 p`p???<9pÇ<(?>x|<>88@`!Æ?<?p1>8 >{9?À?A ! @p|9k?` ` >|? #?ϼ_}_?c?<??|p|??yw?x>0|p<?LJ  8?py>?p0c|_?!3>`X@~ >`8A xx>?:3f8?>p8 x` 80<?>7 0x`8? a08 xp  8@C|0ALJ><0<8?8y>?CÀ~?xx  p`8 a8x8xxF>>0Ï|0χ>>?88?C>x?#

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